Winchester Black Talon?

Winchester Black Talon?

This is a discussion on Winchester Black Talon? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Was at my LGS and saw a box of this stuff in 9mm, has anyone heard or seen it before? It looked like an older ...

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Thread: Winchester Black Talon?

  1. #1
    Member Array Kenny256's Avatar
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    Winchester Black Talon?

    Was at my LGS and saw a box of this stuff in 9mm, has anyone heard or seen it before? It looked like an older box, did not know if I should try it out or not.
    Carry-S&W 642
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    The Dalai Lama:"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun."


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    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    I've heard of it and seen it before. Had some. Still have a box in 45ACP. It's a collector's item now for the most part. Black Talon doesn't exist on the current market now and is no longer manufactured by that name. Politics is what hosed it all down. Of course it's going to be an "older" box. Buy it but don't shoot it IMO. The box alone may be worth more than the ammo you can get nowadays with any comparison.

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    Member Array Kenny256's Avatar
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    LOL so its useless ammo? Sticker said $33 for a box of 20? ( I think) just currious if I cant shoot it I dont really need it..
    Carry-S&W 642
    HD-Remington 870

    The Dalai Lama:"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun."

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    Not at all - it's great stuff, but it was demonized by the liberal press for the damage it caused in humans. Winchester pulled it off the market, then got smarter about their marketing. The same or better stuff is available today in their LE-only lines, and possibly some other loads as well.
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    I saw this coming a long time ago. The Black Talon is really a victim of it's own marketing success. But given all of that, it really did present an impressive mushroom profile when it expanded. That too was made into antigun fodder. When fully expanded, the petals of the projectile flattened out into a SNOW FLAKE pattern with jagged edges on all sides. The antigun crowd, led by a lot of the E.R. Docs (who do seem so very liberal) said they were seeing victims (read perps) ripped into bloody shreds by this "devastating bullet" and they themselves in the process of preserving every precious PUNK ummm I mean life were having their own gloved fingers LACERATED in the operations. I have about 500 rounds of this ammo in 45ACP that I collected over a period of years, 20rds at a time, usually at gun shows. I don't carry it, even though in FL "a good shoot is a good shoot" & ammo isn't a decisive factor for a Grand Jury. Also, our amended castle doctrine doesn't allow for wrongful death suits by the perps estate or by over zealous prosecutors hunting heads of gun owners, I still don't want to be perceived as loading "deadlier than normal" ammo. It's NOT "deadlier" & we all know that, but perception is often more powerful than reality. I'm sorta saving my Black Talon for a rainy SHTF day, if you know what I mean.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny256 View Post
    LOL so its useless ammo? Sticker said $33 for a box of 20? ( I think) just currious if I cant shoot it I dont really need it..
    Never any useless ammo really. $33 for a box of twenty relates to how much per round? Sure......you can shoot it. But it would look a whole lot better in the box on your kitchen table. Just my 2. You won't find much more of it at any price.

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    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    The Black Talon is an older bullet design that's been surpassed as far as reliability goes by the latest generation JHP's (Ranger-T, HST, Gold Dot...).

    Considering that you can get 50 rounds of Ranger-T (the new, improved version of the Talon bullet) for less than those 20 rounds of BT's...if you're looking for a good carry round, there's better out there for cheaper.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

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    Senior Member Array Keltyke's Avatar
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    Get it for the historical value. I believe it came out back in the 60s. It was greatly hyped as being too vicious for general use. "Cop killer" was one label that was put on it. Supposed to literally shred internal organs, causing instant death and destruction. Winchester pulled it, changed the name, and put it back on the market.

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    VIP Member Array automatic slim's Avatar
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    I have an unfired Blue S&W M-29-2 with 6.5" barrel in my safe that I wouldn't consider useless even though I'll never fire it. That ammo isn't useless either, but it's collector value far outweighs it's
    use for defense, especially when you can get virtually the same thing for much less. Actually $33 isn't bad for Black Talon.
    "First gallant South Carolina nobly made the stand."
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    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltyke View Post
    Get it for the historical value. I believe it came out back in the 60s. It was greatly hyped as being too vicious for general use. "Cop killer" was one label that was put on it. Supposed to literally shred internal organs, causing instant death and destruction. Winchester pulled it, changed the name, and put it back on the market.
    Not really close. That's more of the interwebz myth that surrounds the BT than actual information.

    BT came out in the early 90's. It wouldn't shred anything; the jacket opened up into jagged petals, which would tear a wider wound channel than other JHP's at the time, and would no more likely cause "instant death" than any other properly placed JHP.

    Winchester did indeed pull it, and re-released it under their LEO Ranger line.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

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    What's in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

    No need to add ammo to a prosecutor's case with some vicious-sounding ammo. I think several of the ammo makers have "detuned" their label names for that reason. Really, HST, Gold Dot, and PDX1 sounds much less threatening to a jurist's ear than the sinister Black Talon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltyke View Post
    Get it for the historical value. I believe it came out back in the 60s. It was greatly hyped as being too vicious for general use. "Cop killer" was one label that was put on it. Supposed to literally shred internal organs, causing instant death and destruction. Winchester pulled it, changed the name, and put it back on the market.
    No, not the 1960s. You're thinking of the HYDRA-SHOK. That was originally introduced as a sort of "wadcutter with a post" and not widely available until the 70's and 80's. Also the KTW so called "cop killer" AP round came out about the same time. Black Talon was a creature of the late 80's and early 90's.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    What's in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

    No need to add ammo to a prosecutor's case with some vicious-sounding ammo. I think several of the ammo makers have "detuned" their label names for that reason. Really, HST, Gold Dot, and PDX1 sounds much less threatening to a jurist's ear than the sinister Black Talon.
    Of course you're correct. An even greater marketing dream came true when the word "SAFE" is added to the actual product line as in Glaser SAFETY slug or MAGSAFE. Whether or not you agree with those products effectiveness (as I do -- I only load them in my primary mags), you have to admit they've never been successfully sued as being more "deadly" and I say successfully sued because they have been litigated endlessly, all suits failed. Black Talon in reverse.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by automatic slim View Post
    I have an unfired Blue S&W M-29-2 with 6.5" barrel in my safe that I wouldn't consider useless even though I'll never fire it. That ammo isn't useless either, but it's collector value far outweighs it's use for defense, especially when you can get virtually the same thing for much less. Actually $33 isn't bad for Black Talon.
    Okay, what am I bid for 100rds of Black Talon? No original box, just the rounds in an MTM plastic ammo case. LOL JK. Still ... I'd like to know what folks would pay .... Especially considering todays ammo crunch and prices ....
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    Member Array tkirk's Avatar
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    Smile Black Talon Reliability

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny256 View Post
    Was at my LGS and saw a box of this stuff in 9mm, has anyone heard or seen it before? It looked like an older box, did not know if I should try it out or not.
    The short answer to your question is YES....that is if the ammo was properly stored. I purchased quite a large amount of the Winchester Talons in 9mm, .357 Mag, .44 Mag, & .45 ACP back in the early '90s...just before they were withdrawn from the market. According to FBI data on terminal ballistics,your 147 grain 9mm Talon projectiles had an average velocity of approximately 981 fps from a standard length barrel, and produced wound channels that were similar to other manufactures best products at that time. As others have opined, current munition technology by today's manufactures do indeed offer better 9mm incapacitating munitions, but I wouldn't hesitate to rely on the Talons for personal protection, especially if they were properly stored....they should maintain their potential for destruction for at least 30 years or longer. Winchester applied an air-tight, water-tight sealant about the primer & seated projectile from the factory to insure ballistic integrity, so you shouldn't have to worry about its ability to go "bang". If you plan on just watching the box collect dust, then my advice is to do nothing but watch the product appreciate in value, however; if you plan on utilizing the product for personal protection, I would test fire a couple of rounds into some wet newspapers or layers of pine boards to assure the viability of the ammo, as well as assessing its performance. To insure that they last a lifetime, I would advise taking some of your significent other's clear nail polish and retreat the primer and projectile seat...giving lasting protection from potential damaging air & moisture.

    I personally utilize Talon ammo in my personal protection weaponry, especially in .45ACP, .357 Mag, & .44 Mag. It is still an awesome product that produces large wound channels that are comprable to modern munitions....I come from the old guard that favors the "bigger the hole.....the faster they bleed out". Give it a try on a Groundhog....you will see why trauma centers called the Black Talon "A Surgeon's Nightmare"!!!!

    tkirk

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