Is there any real evidence that one caliber is a better fight stopper than another?

This is a discussion on Is there any real evidence that one caliber is a better fight stopper than another? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by 10thmtn Tangle - My last sentence was not directed at you personally - it was the general "you" - sorry for the ...

Page 11 of 18 FirstFirst ... 789101112131415 ... LastLast
Results 151 to 165 of 264

Thread: Is there any real evidence that one caliber is a better fight stopper than another?

  1. #151
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,714
    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Tangle - My last sentence was not directed at you personally - it was the general "you" - sorry for the confusion there.
    No problem - I understand what you're saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    ...As far as the whole JHP vs ball thing, I'm willing to bet many more people have been killed by FMJ than by JHPs. I'm not saying that JHPs are bad - I'm just saying that they are not magic, and the only thing they do to stop a threat 'faster' seems to be making a slightly larger hole. We know from the 9mm vs .45 debate that the difference is not that much.
    The problem with, "I'm willing to bet many more people have been killed by FMJ than by JHPs." is that one, FMJs have been around a lot longer, two, it's not about killing, it's about getting them to stop doing what they were doing that mady you shoot them in the first place. There have been many incidents where the BG is fatally wounded, but lives long enough to kill the person that shot them or other people before he died. I would think we would very much want to avoid that sort of thing.

    Seems like I read recently that the lowly .22 had killed more people than any other round - that's unverified too, but not unreasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    ...I think of it like this - the best civilian man-stopper is generally considered the shotgun, firing buckshot. Buckshot is nothing more than a bunch of .30 (#1) or .34 (00) balls of lead. Weight of each pellet is less than almost all handgun bullets, and the velocity is not all that impressive either (~1250 fps). What makes it effective is the number of pellets delivered at once, the bleeding that they all produce together, and the increased probability of hitting something vital due to the number of pellets.
    and the spread of the pellets.

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    At best, any handgun is an 'incremental shotgun' that takes numerous pulls of the trigger to get even close to what a shotgun can do in one blast.
    Agree 100% and that is exactly my philosophy about how to use a handgun to stop a fight - rapid fire multiple hits. The incremental shotgun or SMG effect.

    However, we likely won't have enough control of the engagement to guarantee we will have the opportunity to get multiple hits with a handgun. If the BG is shooting at us and we're both moving and we're trying to shoot back, we may be lucky to even get a hit. We could wind up in a situation where the only thing exposed by the BG is a foot, a shoulder, his butt, etc. I realize that doesn't give us a prime target, but if that's all I've got, I want what I shoot it with to cause the most distraction, pain, bleeding, etc. and incapacitation possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    ...Earlier in this thread I stated that it is impossible to answer your original question. Too many variables, and it is simply impossible to test in a way that will give any kind of valid answer. So you are left with choosing the caliber you "prefer," not really which is "better."
    But the question remains, if there is nothing to decide on, i.e. too many variables, what do we base our choice on? Given that, I see no justification to carry anything other than a 9mm. Practice ammo is cheap, by all indications it seems to be an effective round with modern ammo. It has low recoil, low muzzle flash, low muzzle blast, high capacity. You can carry a lot of ammo because it is compact and light.

    The only other reason is convenience and for me, not for everyone, but for me convenience is not even a consideration.

    Other than convenience of carry, what possible reason could there be to carry anything else?
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #152
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,714
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    The unvarnished truth---- why I chose .40. My first "carry gun" purchase required a great deal of consideration and thought, and so I talked to a half bazillion people I knew and gathered opinions. One of my co-workers, an ex-Marine (if there is such a thing), and wounded VN war vet gave me the following "advice." He said, "I think that little .40 is a nice caliber." So, I went to the range, rented something that used .40, liked the way it felt, and then stupidly bought a a different make and model that didn't handle as well as the one I rented-- probably a Glock. In other words, the "why" part of your question was answered with a rather willy nilly piece of possibly good advice and some less than adequate experimentation at the range, and poor decision making at the sales counter.

    I later realized that for my needs, a smaller lighter and easier to handle gun was appropriate. Again, almost by accident, I chose a Mustang II in .380. No great deliberation involved. My BIL was showing me his. I admired it. He said, "you know, I want to get one of those beretta 92fs in 9, go ahead and take my Mustang.

    See, the choice was "all rational and carefully thought out," with nothing but logic, rationality, ballistics, and "the facts."

    I have a hunch that most folks, if not required to choose from a list provided by their employer, are at least equally rational in their purchase decision.
    LOL!!! Now we're gettin' somewhere. Thank you so much for being so candid. I think you just hit a bullseye.

    So I'll see your candidness (is that a word?) and raise you a candid. When I bought my P250, I went to buy a 9mm. They didn't have one. I couldn't find one anywhere. But they did have a .45 full size and I liked the looks and feel of it and after some deliberation, bought it. So now I'm a .45ACP guy. As you say, all well thought out and quite logical.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  4. #153
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,714
    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Tangle - My last sentence was not directed at you personally - it was the general "you" - sorry for the confusion there.
    No problem - I understand what you're saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    ...As far as the whole JHP vs ball thing, I'm willing to bet many more people have been killed by FMJ than by JHPs. I'm not saying that JHPs are bad - I'm just saying that they are not magic, and the only thing they do to stop a threat 'faster' seems to be making a slightly larger hole. We know from the 9mm vs .45 debate that the difference is not that much.
    The problem with, "I'm willing to bet many more people have been killed by FMJ than by JHPs." is that one, FMJs have been around a lot longer, two, it's not about killing, it's about getting them to stop doing what they were doing that mady you shoot them in the first place. There have been many incidents where the BG is fatally wounded, but lives long enough to kill the person that shot them or other people before he died. I would think we would very much want to avoid that sort of thing.

    Seems like I read recently that the lowly .22 had killed more people than any other round - that's unverified too, but not unreasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    ...I think of it like this - the best civilian man-stopper is generally considered the shotgun, firing buckshot. Buckshot is nothing more than a bunch of .30 (#1) or .34 (00) balls of lead. Weight of each pellet is less than almost all handgun bullets, and the velocity is not all that impressive either (~1250 fps). What makes it effective is the number of pellets delivered at once, the bleeding that they all produce together, and the increased probability of hitting something vital due to the number of pellets.
    and the spread of the pellets.

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    At best, any handgun is an 'incremental shotgun' that takes numerous pulls of the trigger to get even close to what a shotgun can do in one blast.
    Agree 100% and that is exactly my philosophy about how to use a handgun to stop a fight - rapid fire multiple hits. The incremental shotgun or SMG effect.

    However, we likely won't have enough control of the engagement to guarantee we will have the opportunity to get multiple hits with a handgun. If the BG is shooting at us and we're both moving and we're trying to shoot back, we may be lucky to even get a hit. We could wind up in a situation where the only thing exposed by the BG is a foot, a shoulder, his butt, etc. I realize that doesn't give us a prime target, but if that's all I've got, I want what I shoot it with to cause the most distraction, pain, bleeding, etc. and incapacitation possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    ...Earlier in this thread I stated that it is impossible to answer your original question. Too many variables, and it is simply impossible to test in a way that will give any kind of valid answer. So you are left with choosing the caliber you "prefer," not really which is "better."
    But the question remains, if there is nothing to decide on, i.e. too many variables, what do we base our choice on? Given that, I see no justification to carry anything other than a 9mm. Practice ammo is cheap, by all indications it seems to be an effective round with modern ammo. It has low recoil, low muzzle flash, low muzzle blast, high capacity. You can carry a lot of ammo because it is compact and light. And there are varieties of 9mms that are quite compact for those that that's important to.

    The only other reason is convenience and for me, not for everyone, but for me convenience is not even a consideration.

    Other than convenience of carry, what possible reason could there be to carry anything else?
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  5. #154
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,982
    Bingo Tangle. I also see no logical reason to carry anything bigger than a 9mm. Above 9mm, the law of diminishing returns starts to kick in - IMHO.

    I can see logical reasons to carry less than a 9mm - and apparently many others do, too. Lately, I've been thinking that I can carry two LCPs for less weight than one G26. Given my dress realities, and where I work, I cannot carry two Glocks, or even a Glock and a LCP. But I could carry two LCPs - one in each pocket. Two .380s trumps one 9mm, in my mind. But that's another thread topic...
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
    www.armedcitizensnetwork.org - member
    Glock 30, 19, 26; Ruger SP101, LCR, LCP (2), Mini 14; Marlin 336 .30-30; Mossberg 500
    CT Lasers

  6. #155
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Coral Gables, FL
    Posts
    5,802
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    We're all aware of that charlie; that was never an issue. The point of the thread was not to prove that placement was better than caliber, but to explore why we choose the caliber we choose and what influences that decision. But, again, this thread is not about shot placement vs caliber; it's about caliber vs caliber. And yes, there are 7 pages of interesting discussion; you say that like that's a bad thing. Why do you think there's been so much discussion if the participants didn't find it interesting, and probing?
    Wow, is that what it is? Why we choose the caliber we choose and what influences that decision? Because given the rancor that has occurred here about studies and science it almost seems as if there has been some "turn or burn" evangelism going on with some healthy assertions that if one person's point of view isn't accepted as "fact" everybody else is surely going to spend eternity in a very HOT place.

    My calibers of choice are almost always situational dependent. A .38sp (5 shot "J" frame) means it's a warm muggy Miami day and I'm not going someplace I think is high risk and I have asked the chief of staff (wife) her plans for our day's travel. A 9mm (my H&K P30) means that we may be going somewhere outside of my usual comfort zone and I'll be carrying a high cap primary mag and a high cap spare mag. I'll probably also be wanting lighter weight. This is what I usually carry if we go to the Florida Keys for the day. OTOH, if we're traveling outside the city on a driving vacation or expect to be passing thru or near "Indian Country" as identified by myself in a prior map recon (I always check the maps before I travel) then I'm carrying a 45 on me. My XD 45 compact with 10rds in the pistol and a 13rd hi-cap as a spare ON me plus a B.O.B as back up with more loaded mags and my medical trauma kit in case of a real emergency enroute. If we're driving upstate or out of state on vacation there will be the Taurus Judge (Public Defender) for my wife and a Kel-Tec PLR16 .223 carried in a custom made holster (attached to the drivers seat) at my feet and loaded with a 30rd mag plus more loaded mags behind the open topped holster portion in a special mag pocket. In most any situation described above, I have the faith borne of decades of training and experience to be perfectly happy with any and all of the firearms listed and their calibers to handle any possible self and family defense situation I might encounter. The sole change might be if we're going to be in BEAR country and I'd add the S&W XVR 460 magnum and perhaps a couple of different 20 rd boxes of ammo in 45 Colt (also fits "The Judge"), 454 Casull and 460 magnum, just to be certain. But I never needed the various studies mentioned here with such vitriol to make said decisions. If I have been "influenced" it is by my formal military training as well as long discussions with folks who practice the military version of the ummmm "dark arts" of warfare. OPFOR and the Great Gonzo know to whom I am referring and the rest of you will probably make the correct guess.
    Last edited by ExSoldier; August 13th, 2010 at 04:32 PM. Reason: add some data
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  7. #156
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,714
    Ex, of course there's been topic drift and there's been some vigorously debated issues. I think you may be over-reacting a bit to some interesting points and counterpoints. Look at the view count and the response count. All these things are of interest to a lot of people.

    We could all add what we carry and when and personal SD philosophies but I'd rather hear thoughts about how people have come to the decisions about what they carry. I think it couldn't be better illustrated by the example I've posted three times now. One guy chooses a compact Glock in 9mm, another is willing to put up with the increased recoil, flash/blast, more expensive practice ammo and selects a .357 sig. Why? What's the benefit? Another may choose a .40 cal in the very same gun. Why?

    What is it we see in caliber that matters to us and why does it?
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  8. #157
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,659
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    What is it we see in caliber that matters to us and why does it?
    By analogy--- a few years back I was introduced to kayaking. So, I started looking to buy one. You think you got plenty of choices in guns and ammo, you ain't seen nothing till you look at kayaks. And there's no Consumer Reports to help.

    Bottom line, the manufacturers and distributors provide something for everyone but the shopper can at best look at the options and make a guess. That's how we end up with more than one kayak, more than one camera, more than one hand-gun or rifle.
    That's how we end up with a 'puter running OS whaterever, Windows something, and Linux flavor of the month. TOO MANY CHOICES. [facetious sarcasm] The only solution is communism. [/facetious sarcasm off] Take away the choices and the problem goes away.

  9. #158
    Member Array bsms's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    Posts
    235
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    ...but I'd rather hear thoughts about how people have come to the decisions about what they carry...One guy chooses a compact Glock in 9mm, another is willing to put up with the increased recoil, flash/blast, more expensive practice ammo and selects a .357 sig. Why? What's the benefit? Another may choose a .40 cal in the very same gun. Why?...
    I've put a larger grip on my S&W M60 and shoot it more often now with 357 than I used to. Emotionally, I find the 357 more comforting. But it is a 158 grain bullet going 1200 fps, vs 1000 fps for Buffalo Bore 38+P, so it is an emotional act. As I consider another handgun for plinking, fund & SD, I'm leaning to the S&W Model 10 in 38+P...with a 4 inch barrel, it will push out a 158 grain bullet at 1100-1150. Given the 38+P may use a bullet designed for lower velocities, it may be more effective than the 357 in my M60...but it just doesn't sound right. It sounds so wimpy!

    But the discussions on threads like this and the reading I've done because of it have me leaning more and more towards buying at least ONE K-frame and trusting the lowly 38+P plus lots of practice plus a good gun instead of trusting the MAGNUM name on the box of ammo.

    Still, I'll admit there is just something satisfying about loading a gun up with 44 special ammo...those 260 grain bullets put a smile on my face just LOADING the gun!

  10. #159
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Coral Gables, FL
    Posts
    5,802
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Ex, of course there's been topic drift and there's been some vigorously debated issues. I think you may be over-reacting a bit to some interesting points and counterpoints. Look at the view count and the response count. All these things are of interest to a lot of people.

    We could all add what we carry and when and personal SD philosophies but I'd rather hear thoughts about how people have come to the decisions about what they carry. I think it couldn't be better illustrated by the example I've posted three times now. One guy chooses a compact Glock in 9mm, another is willing to put up with the increased recoil, flash/blast, more expensive practice ammo and selects a .357 sig. Why? What's the benefit? Another may choose a .40 cal in the very same gun. Why?

    What is it we see in caliber that matters to us and why does it?
    I dumped my 40 Glock (both the M23 & M27) because I dislike the barrel whip on the 40 round and because I disliked stockpiling such an expensive round for a single handgun. I owned the M23 first and later the M27 and they were each my only "shorty forty" in the collection, whereas I have a couple of 9mms and (lessee here) four 45acp's. I'd never buy or carry a 357 Sig for the sheer noise damage it does to ears. Same for the 10mm. I swear I can detect where the 357 Sigs are located on a crowded firing line out of all the calibers present. L-O-U-D!!! When you start talking really heavy calibers like the 41/44 magnums, I already have and love the 460.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  11. #160
    VIP Member Array peckman28's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,082
    I have to admit this thread is making me want to get a 9mm as my next handgun...

  12. #161
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Coral Gables, FL
    Posts
    5,802
    Quote Originally Posted by peckman28 View Post
    I have to admit this thread is making me want to get a 9mm as my next handgun...
    If I might make a suggestion, IMHO, the H&K P30 is simply the finest 9mm handgun I have ever owned and or fired. Accurate, light, 15 rd capacity and virtually indestructible.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  13. #162
    VIP Member Array peckman28's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,082
    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    If I might make a suggestion, IMHO, the H&K P30 is simply the finest 9mm handgun I have ever owned and or fired. Accurate, light, 15 rd capacity and virtually indestructible.
    Thanks, I'll have to check them out. Heard great things, but never handled one. I've always liked my .40 caliber SIG so much, but I'm seeing a lot of persuasive 9mm arguments here...

  14. #163
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Coral Gables, FL
    Posts
    5,802
    Quote Originally Posted by peckman28 View Post
    Thanks, I'll have to check them out. Heard great things, but never handled one. I've always liked my .40 caliber SIG so much, but I'm seeing a lot of persuasive 9mm arguments here...
    LOL I handled the Sig GSR 1911 C3 at the last gun show and my buddies had to literally PRY my hands off of it. I just got my wife to commit to buying me one as her wedding anniversary gift to me for our 23rd in a few weeks. See, this is how I knew she was a KEEPER 23 years ago!
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  15. #164
    VIP Member Array peckman28's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,082
    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    LOL I handled the Sig GSR 1911 C3 at the last gun show and my buddies had to literally PRY my hands off of it. I just got my wife to commit to buying me one as her wedding anniversary gift to me for our 23rd in a few weeks. See, this is how I knew she was a KEEPER 23 years ago!
    Those SIG 1911s are definitely pretty and accurate. I hope you get a good one; I bought one last June and ended up with a lemon that had to go back to the factory 3 times before they gave up and replaced it. The new one seems to be working fine though. Aside from the jamming on the old one, I enjoyed shooting it more than any other gun I had. Since the new one actually works right so far, it's that much better. Best of luck with yours!

  16. #165
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Coral Gables, FL
    Posts
    5,802
    Quote Originally Posted by peckman28 View Post
    Those SIG 1911s are definitely pretty and accurate. I hope you get a good one; I bought one last June and ended up with a lemon that had to go back to the factory 3 times before they gave up and replaced it. The new one seems to be working fine though. Aside from the jamming on the old one, I enjoyed shooting it more than any other gun I had. Since the new one actually works right so far, it's that much better. Best of luck with yours!
    Thanks! Everything I have seen and read on the C3 specifically is that they seem extremely well made and reliable. I know this, the one I handled seemed to fit ME like Excalibur must have felt to the Boy King when he first drew it from the stone! It was magical.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

Page 11 of 18 FirstFirst ... 789101112131415 ... LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Let's Have a Caliber Fight
    By NYReload in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 117
    Last Post: December 13th, 2010, 09:59 PM
  2. 45cal man stopper that Jim Cirillo used
    By stgdz in forum Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: July 7th, 2008, 02:39 AM
  3. Practicing shows evidence of progress!
    By Scot Van in forum General Firearm Discussion
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: January 11th, 2008, 09:41 PM

Search tags for this page

243 caliber as a man stopper
,

5.7 stopping power

,
700 nitro express ammo
,
700 nitro handgun hits head
,
can a 380 ruger penetrate a car tire
,
evan marshall strasbourg test
,

evan marshall strasburg test

,
evan marshall strasburg test and handgun effectiveness
,
evan marshall strasburg test and handgun effectiveness.
,
hydrostatic shock caliber
,
jim carmichael shooting editor
,
relative incapacitation index (rii)
Click on a term to search for related topics.