.45ACP vs. .223? Wut? - Page 2

.45ACP vs. .223? Wut?

This is a discussion on .45ACP vs. .223? Wut? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Joshua M. Smith When it was first developed, the bullet yawed and often fragmented inside 100 yards. The wounding potential was all ...

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  1. #16
    OD*
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua M. Smith View Post
    When it was first developed, the bullet yawed and often fragmented inside 100 yards. The wounding potential was all out of proportion to the bullet size.
    I'm assuming you mean after impact?
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

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  2. #17
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    The 62gr (M885) rounds still yaw and fragment reliably within their velocity windows - they just don't start with the same velocity as lighter bullets and therefore have narrower windows. Other bullet types with different designs (thinner jackets, for example), can still exhibit dramatic fragmentation at longer ranges.

    Faster rifling, BTW, can AID in fragmentation because the bullet is spinning faster, and is (or can be) more prone to "spinning itself apart" when destabilized by hitting flesh.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  3. #18
    Senior Member Array Joshua M. Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OD* View Post
    I'm assuming you mean after impact?
    Hello OD,

    Of course. I would expect accuracy to be dismal otherwise.

    You're right however; I should have clarified. I've heard plenty of times from those with no concept of external ballistics that the bullet buzzsaws through the air. Some of those folks were enlightened, and others I just walked away from as they were obvious Range Commandos with no knowledge of gyroscopic stabilization or the Coriolis effect... this latter being why I have fliers at all, as I've never pulled a shot in my life ;D

    Still, because of the myth, I should have been totally clear on what I meant.

    Josh

  4. #19
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    That why I asked, you still hear people claiming the 556 yaws in flight.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow. End the cycle of hatred, donít give them a tomorrow."

  5. #20
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by OD* View Post
    That why I asked, you still hear people claiming the 556 yaws in flight.
    I've heard it in conjunction with "tumbling" while in flight. Always good for a laugh.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    I've heard it in conjunction with "tumbling" while in flight. Always good for a laugh.
    That's quite true JD, because most of the folks that claim the 556 "tumbles" in flight don't know what yaw means.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow. End the cycle of hatred, donít give them a tomorrow."

  7. #22
    Senior Member Array Joshua M. Smith's Avatar
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    You know, they could be right. Maybe they're achieving these ultra-lethal results using a 1:14 twist and 62gn bullets...? :D

    Josh

  8. #23
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    Lol, Josh...then it WILL yaw (though not "tumble") in flight! I remember back in the stone ages my unit still had M16A1s (there was a reason for it), but 55gr ammo was getting very scarce. They had us zero with the 62gr stuff, and the vast majority of holes in the 25m zero targets were perfect PROFILES of the bullets... Not very conducive to accuracy at 300m!
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  9. #24
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    Interesting thread. My opinion, is they both have their place. We all know they are both very lethal, but to me it all comes down to the physics of it. Energy transfer and shot placement. You could also compare them to, say, the longbow and the spear. The arrow is lighter and faster, the spear is heavier and slower. Both will kill you fast, or slow, or not at all depending on the shot placement.
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  10. #25
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    I hunted rockchucks and coyotes in WA ST with a .223 loaded with 55 grn spiral point boattails. It would literally disintegrate chucks under 200 yds. It's performance on coyotes, although deadly, was much less spectacular. That caused me to doubt its effectiveness on deer-sized game. Perhaps .223 bullet construction has improved since those days, penetration was not sufficient with the 55 grns.

    At very close in range, handgun range, I'd prefer my .45 more for its handiness than any caliber effectiveness. But for beyond that, the .45's rainbow trajectory would easily lose out to the flat shooting .223.
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  11. #26
    Senior Member Array hayzor's Avatar
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    The AR/.223 rifle seems difficult to conceal, that is the reason people like the 45 acp in a holster they can carry all day every day.
    The .223 is on the low side for a rifle.
    The 45 acp is on the high side for handguns.

    Apples and oranges
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  12. #27
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    Hey, Here's a great example from personal defense tv! http://link.brightcove.com/services/...id=50577868001

    I saw this episode about a year ago. If I remember correctly, they also did the same test going through multiple walls made of drywall. The .223 had no where near what I would expect in penetration compared to the .45acp.
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  13. #28
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    .mil uses FMJ
    FMJ sucks...
    "some" .mil started using OTM 77gr, OTM= "open tip mouth" AKA HPBT match rounds..

    the fragment and thus hit "harder" then any FMJ

    but still not as good as most any hunting round for a 223, TSX, gold dot, bearclaw....

    any of those would make a fine deer round out to 300+ if you are a good shot

  14. #29
    Distinguished Member Array RKM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua M. Smith View Post
    Hello,

    E = M * V^2.

    This says that energy is more dependent upon velocity than mass.

    However, this does not apply much to handgun bullets at handgun speeds. We must therefore be dependent upon increased mass for "stopping power."
    Exactly, but I guess most people seem to think size is everything.

    The 5.56x45 travels at almost mach III. When it was first developed, the bullet yawed and often fragmented inside 100 yards. The wounding potential was all out of proportion to the bullet size.

    After the projectiles started getting heavier and more stabilized with faster rifling to penetrate intermediate barriers, it also started penetrating humans. It was still producing the energy, but it was no longer applying that energy to fragmentation, but rather to penetration.
    I'm not worried about penetration through barriers. So the M855 is no good for me. I use whatever to plink with .223 or 5.56 55gr, 50gr, FMJ or JHP... it doesn't matter.

    I have a 16" (really wanted 18" but couldn't pass up the price) 1:9 barrel. Most say 68 grain is the heaviest you can use accurately. Now that you're talking about yaw and fragmentation, I always assumed that a good unstable bullet is going to cause more damage. I figured a nice 75-77 grain bullet from a 1:9 or more barrel will cause some devastating wounds inside 75 yards or so. I know accuracy will be off at greater distances. Then you can rely on the smaller weight bullets further out. Am I wrong? I've read the reason the original design was so good because of the loose twist cause unstable bullets thus creating more deadly wounds. Now-a-day's it seems like a 1:9 barrel is very loose. So I figure a good 75 grain should work well inside 100 yards and still be fairly accurate.

    I have high hopes for the new MK318 MOD 0 round. Though it's not designed to expand, I suspect it might fragment. It should at least produce a larger shock wave due to the flatter nose profile.

    I stick with 7.62x39 Uly 8m3 rounds. These seem like the best compromise between size, weight, speed, and fragmentation. I also prefer the near-indestructible SKS as long as it's outfitted with a detachable bayonet and AR style sights.

    My sidearm is a 1911 .45 modeled after the MEU(SOC) version.

    If I were to go to an AR15 style rifle, it would be the rifle - not the carbine - and it would be firing the original weight bullets with the original twist.

    That said, I still believe the .30 calibers at the same (or similar) speeds are far superior.

    Josh
    I also think the .30 bullets WILL be more effective, but just like the .45 vs 9mm debate, a hit COM with a 9mm beats a hit in the toe with a .45. I've often though of getting (close to .30) a 6.8mm upper. But to use different uppers, one for plinking the other for self defense would be stupid. I know the 5.56 CAN be effevtice when the right round and right barrel are combined. I don't need to be deadly from 100+ yards. At the distance, I can get out of there away from danger all together. I'd like a round that's good inside 25 yards, maybe out to 75-100 yards. So I figure something heavy, unstable, but accurate within 25-100 yards will yaw and fragment nicely. Something that's not going to just cause a .223 sized hole straight through and through. 75 grain won't make tight groups at 100 yards, but it should be accurate enough.

    Hornady 75gr TAP FPD?

    If I REALLY need deadly accuracy past 100 yards (Which I never will, I don't hunt), well I'm planning on purchasing a nice bolt-action .308 in the future.

    This kind of ventured away from the original topic, but whatever :)

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
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    I would think that once the bullet became unstable, it would lose energy too quickly to be effective. I would rather have a stable hollowpoint at any range than an unstable FMJ. . . well, an unstable anything.

    Now, from what I understand, at shorter ranges the reason .45ACP is more effective than 5.56x45 is because that on the underfed people that our guys are engaging now, the bullet has penetrated and left the target before the small round expends any energy in the target, while the .45 leaves a far bigger hole, and dumps its energy faster. This is not my theory, but one I read a while back on why we should adopt the 7.62x39 (a position I don't actually agree with) from an armchair sergeant somewhere.

    If I had two guns to choose from, a .45ACP pistol and a .223 rifle and KNEW I was getting into a gunfight, I would take the rifle.

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