.45ACP vs. .223? Wut? - Page 3

.45ACP vs. .223? Wut?

This is a discussion on .45ACP vs. .223? Wut? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Most say 68 grain is the heaviest you can use accurately. dont belive it... i shoot 75 out of 1/9's all the time, no accuracy ...

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Thread: .45ACP vs. .223? Wut?

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array Ring's Avatar
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    Most say 68 grain is the heaviest you can use accurately.

    dont belive it... i shoot 75 out of 1/9's all the time, no accuracy issues at all...


  2. #32
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    livewire - the bullet is not unstable in flight, it only becomes unstable after striking the target. It does, at that point, expend it's energy relatively quickly (assuming yaw and fragmentation), but that's a good thing in this case.

    Ring - OTM stands for Open Tip Match, and it does not perform as a traditional HP would/should. As you mentioned, it relies on fragmentation for additional wounding effect; but the standard 5.56 rounds in use by the military (55gr and 62gr FMJ) ALSO reliably fragment within their velocity envelopes.

    RKM - M855 ammo is a reasonable "compromise" choice: it is decent against barriers, retains velocity relatively well over distance, penetrates "armor" better than most similar rounds, and still reliably fragments within its velocity envelope.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    livewire - the bullet is not unstable in flight, it only becomes unstable after striking the target.
    I thought someone said that the bullet would keyhole in a paper target. I'm no physicist, but if that's true (is it?) then the bullet isn't becoming unstable while inside the sheet of paper. . . but I've never keyholed a paper target :-D

  4. #34
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    Ah, ok. Yes, there are situations where the bullet will be unstable in flight (62gr bullet in a 1:14 twist barrel was my example), but that is NOT the norm. Bullets such as we are discussing become dramatically unstable after striking a target; they yaw and the rotational forces from the very rapid spinning that the rifling has imparted will often cause the bullet (depending on a number of factors) to fragment. They are very stable IN flight, though, those heavy bullet/slow twist situations not withstanding.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  5. #35
    Member Array Glockanista's Avatar
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    a 230 grain 45 ACP from a 5" barrel will deliver just under 400 foot ounds of energy. A 55 grain 230 grain 223 round will fly over 3200 fps and deliver just under 1300 foot pounds of energy.

    The 223 round will produce a longer wound cavity and more tissue damage vs the 45 acp round. That being said, I would not want to be shot with either round.
    I practice the 2nd Amendment....alot

  6. #36
    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
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    I expect either round will be a one-shot manstopper if I'm the one firing it.
    "The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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  7. #37
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKM View Post
    This post is just for fun. It's not meant to be a caliber war post...
    Ummm....well, here's to hoping!

    IMO, use the proper tool for the job.... whether that is .45, .223, or 7.62
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

    martyr is a fancy name for crappy fighter
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  8. #38
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    IMO, use the proper tool for the job.... whether that is .45, .223, or 7.62

  9. #39
    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
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    livewire FTW!
    "The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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  10. #40
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    I think part of the issue with the 5.56 is the large number of variables. As has been mentioned take one of the heavy bullets, say a 77 grain and launch it out of 1:14 tube and you are going to have an interesting day at the range. Likewise, try a 45 grain vmax out of a 1:7 and see how it groups at three or four hundred yards. I don't think you will be impressed. I have read of jacket seperations in flight with light bullets in fast twist barrels. If you match the bullet to the twist rate you can do great things. If you were of a mind to show just how horrible it is you could likewise intentionally mismatch things to demonstrate exactly what you want to show. But you could do the same for any caliber by just getting a custom barrel rifled to either match or horribly mismatch your load.

    The .45 acp? It's just another handgun cartridge.
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  11. #41
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    I'm convinced that many of such "hype" statements are out-of-context snippets in which people leave out the other parts due to assuming the listener/reader knows exactly what they mean.

    Example: A comment like "My .45ACP's the best thing since sliced bread" was really floating around in the speaker's/writer's head as something not much different, but missing a few important words, such as "My .45ACP's the best thing since sliced bread, for taking out small wild hogs caught rooting up the veggie patch at the farm."
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  12. #42
    Distinguished Member Array RKM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    I think part of the issue with the 5.56 is the large number of variables. As has been mentioned take one of the heavy bullets, say a 77 grain and launch it out of 1:14 tube and you are going to have an interesting day at the range. Likewise, try a 45 grain vmax out of a 1:7 and see how it groups at three or four hundred yards. I don't think you will be impressed. I have read of jacket seperations in flight with light bullets in fast twist barrels. If you match the bullet to the twist rate you can do great things. If you were of a mind to show just how horrible it is you could likewise intentionally mismatch things to demonstrate exactly what you want to show. But you could do the same for any caliber by just getting a custom barrel rifled to either match or horribly mismatch your load.

    The .45 acp? It's just another handgun cartridge.
    Yes, I've come to realize, for .223/5.56 to be effective, you have to have the right combo of barrel twist/length and bullet type/weight. It can either act as a glorified .22LR, or absolutely truly devastating. I guess this is why you have the mixed feelings of .223/5.56 "stopping power".

    As for .45 known as a good man-stopper... is it? Certainly. Is it better than .40 and 9mm? Ehh, maybe. By much? Not really. I'd carry anything as "small" as .380 and still feel plenty armed. But I will admit. If given the choice, I'll take .45 :)

  13. #43
    Member Array zdinnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKM View Post
    Exactly!

    I've heard the story from Iraq (again these are hear-say stories from the internet/news) that soldier's had multiple shots of their 62gr 5.56 into an insurgent and they could only bring him down with a 9mm. Really? Now I wasn't there, I've never been in war. I"m not even in the military, but c'mon... I have plently of faith in the 9mm, but that just doesn't sound right.


    The closest to first hand experience I have is from my brother in law. He has served in Iraq twice and is 100% confident in his M4. I never ask him questions about Iraq. I don't want to birng back any bad memories. But knowing what he's seen and what he's done and the fact that he's confident in his M4 is enough for me.

    I love my .45's and have confidence they'd save me, but to be compared to a .223/5.56 is crazy.

    That might be a psychological effect. From what I gather from people in my unit who have been deployed a few times is, the citizens are far more scarred of a pistol becuase that is what Saddam used to execute people. It has a fear bonus to its effect.
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  14. #44
    Distinguished Member Array GunGeezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Rod View Post
    The application is what makes one decision better than another. It's no caliber war, it's rifle vs pistol. The intended range will pretty much dictate what you should employ. Hi-velocity in a smaller caliber at close range may approach the same effects as a larger yet slower moving projectile. If you're looking for the quick, clean kill, all you need to do is aim well. Everything else will take care if itself.
    I hate to muddy the water but I've had my Kel-Tec PLR-16 for a couple of years now. Is it a pistol or a rifle? Whut?

  15. #45
    Member Array Hkchris's Avatar
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    .223/5.56 is a military rifle round designed to wound. It's a legacy round from the cold war. Remember when we used to plan that wounding was better than killing due to an increased logistics requirement on our foes?


    .45 is a military pistol round designed to stop/kill/incapacitate.

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