Small Cailber Failures

This is a discussion on Small Cailber Failures within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I read a story on the net about a guy who shot an oncoming attacker with a .22 short handgun and the bullet ricocheted off ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    I read a story on the net about a guy who shot an oncoming attacker with a .22 short handgun and the bullet ricocheted off of his skull because of the angle and the guy proceeded to beat the crap out of the shooter. I can't find it now...it was a couple months ago when I stumbled across it. Try a google search.
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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    I read a story on the net about a guy who shot an oncoming attacker with a .22 short handgun and the bullet ricocheted off of his skull because of the angle and the guy proceeded to beat the crap out of the shooter. I can't find it now...it was a couple months ago when I stumbled across it. Try a google search.
    With mouse guns I always tell people to aim for the stomach. Easy to hit, no bones to deflect, and it hurts like he**.

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    I read a story on the net about a guy who shot an oncoming attacker with a .22 short handgun and the bullet ricocheted off of his skull because of the angle and the guy proceeded to beat the crap out of the shooter. I can't find it now...it was a couple months ago when I stumbled across it. Try a google search.
    http://www.shoot-n-iron.com/pocket-pistols.asp

    Thanks for that. I have emailed Paul for elaboration on the incident.
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  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeadHunter View Post
    http://www.shoot-n-iron.com/pocket-pistols.asp

    Thanks for that. I have emailed Paul for elaboration on the incident.
    Who wrote that article? They state that "S&W now make ALL their J frames in .357." Boy are they off base.

  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1 old 0311 View Post
    Who wrote that article? They state that "S&W now make ALL their J frames in .357." Boy are they off base.
    It is bylined by Paul W Abel, the apparent owner of SHOOT-N-IRON, INC. Practical Shooting and Training Academy
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  7. #21
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    Not much data so far. I would have thought there would be more.
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  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeadHunter View Post
    It is bylined by Paul W Abel, the apparent owner of SHOOT-N-IRON, INC. Practical Shooting and Training Academy

    Kind of surprising that someone who is a 'gun person' would make such a major mistake. All J frames are NOT .357's just as all SP101's are NOT .357's, all Glocks are NOT 9mm's, all 1911's are NOT .45's nor are all AR's 5.56/2.23.

  9. #23
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    I'd be interested in any data that you may find, but I've seen failure to stop reports with every handgun, rifle, and shotgun caliber there is.

    Everything I've read, and the correspondence with medical professionals I've had, leads me to the conclusion that shot placement and penetration are what matter in handgun effectiveness. Caliber and bullet design do not matter all that much at all.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  10. #24
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    People die from every caliber: people survive being shot by every caliber. For every instance of failure, there's an instance of success. You should also ask for instances of where someone stopped an attack with a small caliber and compare the two.
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  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    You should also ask for instances of where someone stopped an attack with a small caliber and compare the two.
    Actually, I have hundreds of those already, including several first person experiences. My database exceeds 3000 successful incidents and many of those involve small calibers, derringers, and various other defensive firearms that the firearms community generally looks down its nose upon.

    What I was trying to determine is whether there was a basis in fact/data for the 9mm and greater predilection or whether that concept is a result of cognition bias. Unfortunately, I have to conclude it is the latter. From the standpoint of private citizen defense, all I have been able to uncover for the preference is shoulda, woulda, coulda. I don't spend much time worrying about being hit in the head by meteorites so the SWC point of view is unimportant to me.

    And I never received a response from the author about the beating following the .22 Short shooting, so even that incident is questionable to me.
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  12. #26
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    In 1990, I was a senior in High School, and a friend of mine who was a year younger than me tried to commit suicide by shooting himself. His girlfriend had broken up with him, after a bunch of other family related issues had occurred, and he went over the edge. He drove to his girlfriend's house, knocked on the door, and when she came to the door, he pulled a .22 LR pistol out of his coat pocket, put it to his head, said "This is because of you," and fired. The bullet hit his skull at an angle, and bounced off (after cutting a huge gash across his forehead from which he still bears a scar). Both he and his now ex-girlfriend went into the local psychiatric hospital for a few days after that experience. And just to show how cruel teenagers can be, from that point on, most people at school called him "Double Deuce."
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  13. #27
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    My only input to this is that BGs tend to duck any caliber shoved into their faces. The only gun ever stuck in my face was a .45 ACP . . . and I was immediately impressed at how BIG that hole in the end of the barrel is. This happened after I was attacked and fought back. I backed down to live another day. But I would have backed down to a .22 stuck in my face. Funny how that works.

    I'm thinking more successful SD situations have been resolved without a shot versus that two-to-the-chest, one-to-the-head resolution. I think it will be tough to find actual documented cases of small caliber failures in any great numbers. Some, yes. A lot, probably not.
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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeadHunter View Post

    Not trying to start a caliber war, but rather trying to quantify any data justifying the opinion that anything less than a 9mm/.40/.45/.500 S&W (take your pick) will not do the job in Private Citizen defense.
    Granted those smaller calibers would not be the first choice of most for concealed carry, but those small mouseguns do have a legitimate use in todays self defense carry. I do own a Ruger LCP which is never my first choice for carry, but it does go with me pretty much everywhere I go because it fits the bill for a great backup gun and for some it could be their primary carry because it will fit most peoples lifestyles. A .380 in the pocket is better then that 1911 that was left at home for what ever reason.

    There are way to many randoms out there that can cause a BG not to stop in his tracks when shot with any gun. I just got back from Afghanistan, where I saw a Army sniper shoot a guy right in the chest with a M14 sniper rifle and the guy got up. It was a great shot right through the breast bone, but the guy got up with enough time to get off a fatal shot if it was a close encounter with a pistol. He dropped dead about 30 seconds later, but he would have been able to get a shot or two off in a self defense shooting. The only way I can think of to ensure a instance stop is to shoot the BG in the head and destroy the brain stem.

    To go out and say to a bunch of people to stay away from these calibers, could possibly persuade a person who is possibly looking into getting a concealed weapon and were considering getting a smaller weapon because it will fit how they intend to carry it. Case in point I've been on leave in my home town in Michigan and have been to multiple gun shops in the past 5 days or so where I've have this same conversation with 3 different people about the pros and cons of the smaller weapons, in two of these cases the carrier of these weapons were college age women whos clothes were so tight the only thing they could conceal would be a mousegun. After talking to these young ladies and their fathers (who didn't have a clue) they both decided on the mouse guns due to the fact that they would be able to easily carry them.

    And this rant just proves that I am on leave for a month in my sleepy home town with nothing to do but blog about guns.
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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeadHunter View Post
    Preparing for my mousegun bloc of instruction at the MidAtlantic Tactical Conference, I am looking for incidents where the would be victim shot their attacker with a small caliber weapon (.22, .25, .32, .380) and, after the shot was fired, was injured or killed by the predator.

    Only incidents involving Armed Citizens are relevant to this research, NOT Law Enforcement Officers. That is to say, I am looking for "mousegun" failures in the hands of Private Citizens.

    Not trying to start a caliber war, but rather trying to quantify any data justifying the opinion that anything less than a 9mm/.40/.45/.500 S&W (take your pick) will not do the job in Private Citizen defense.
    No...no caliber wars here. But when one speaks of "small caliber failures"...I figure they have already determined the possibilities. I do think the relevant data speaks for itself. No need to ask for personal nor individual experiences. Small calibers are ineffective for the most part. Even the 9mm in some think tanks is not a viable self defense round. No matter what you employ as a self defense round.....you alone make it count for what it is. Data? Hard to find. The 22lr can be just as effective as the 45acp. The difference is in how you deploy it. This is where a lot of variables come in to play.

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Rod View Post
    No...no caliber wars here. But when one speaks of "small caliber failures"...I figure they have already determined the possibilities. I do think the relevant data speaks for itself. No need to ask for personal nor individual experiences. Small calibers are ineffective for the most part. Even the 9mm in some think tanks is not a viable self defense round. No matter what you employ as a self defense round.....you alone make it count for what it is. Data? Hard to find. The 22lr can be just as effective as the 45acp. The difference is in how you deploy it. This is where a lot of variables come in to play.
    There are several messages in your post that appear to be diametrically opposite, so I am confused as to what your conclusion is.

    The essential issue is that there is NO data as it pertains to the Armed Citizen. All the aggregated data comes from the law enforcement community and that is so frequently misinterpreted as to border on useless. My hypothesis, which I am testing via the scientific method of trying to disprove it, is that small calibers work as well as any other pathetic popgun that can be fired with one hand, i.e., all handguns. So far, my attempt to disprove my hypothesis is not bearing much fruit.
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