Small Cailber Failures - Page 3

Small Cailber Failures

This is a discussion on Small Cailber Failures within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I can recall a video of a store robbery that I was shown to illustrate "stopping power" vs "killing power". Two dudes hold up a ...

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Thread: Small Cailber Failures

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array Superhouse 15's Avatar
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    I can recall a video of a store robbery that I was shown to illustrate "stopping power" vs "killing power".

    Two dudes hold up a store with a deli counter kind of thing. The owner fires and hits one ofthe BGs, the other reaches over the counter and fires, hits the GG in the spine and stops him. The BG actually pulls up his shirt and looks at the hole in his gut and discusses it with his partner before running out the door. The BG dies later in the street. Got to search some old files for that one.

    Most of the shootings I see are suicides, most wth small calibers (except for that lady with the 12ga..). and so far all successful.
    Try not to screw up so bad they name the screw up after you. (Station 15 saying)

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  2. #32
    Distinguished Member Array Spec's Avatar
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    http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sig...pistols/#video

    Read the Article .... This is one reason why I REFUSE to Carry anything smaller than a 9mm...


    Pros: She had the gun in her pocket, not under the counter or in her purse, or in the lock box. It was in her pocket ready for immediate use when she was on her back and at arms length from her assailant. Great job!

    It does not get more real and a gun is never more valuable than when you can smell you opponent’s breath at that critical moment you shoot to survive!

    Cons: She hit him at least twice with pocket pistol caliber rounds in the upper torso and likely the head (although not between the eyebrows or moustache) and he ran away like he wasn’t even hit!

    True, he stopped his attack.

    True, he might die 30 minute later from bleeding internally.

    But remember, he only ran away because he was not a very dedicated opponent. Had he been high on drugs or enraged or simply a real bad dude, he would have kept on coming because pocket pistols just don’t pack enough stopping power
    NRA Certified Rifle/Pistol Instructor
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    Accuracy ALWAYS WINS! So carry what you can hit with.

    If you find yourself in a fair fight your tactics stink.

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    If I am not mistaken there is a post on the Brass fetcher site about a woman that shot her attacker with a 25 caliber.
    She ended up killing the guy, but not before he beat her within an inch of her life.

    http://www.brassfetcher.com/Sammie%20Fousts%20story.pdf

  4. #34
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    ^
    But that happens with all calibers. You can't depend on any handgun to drop anyone like a rock. There's no sense carrying a .45 auto or 10mm or anything else with "stopping power" if you can't hit where you need to as often as you need to.
    VBVAGUY likes this.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spec View Post
    http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sig...pistols/#video

    But remember, he only ran away because he was not a very dedicated opponent. Had he been high on drugs or enraged or simply a real bad dude, he would have kept on coming because pocket pistols just don’t pack enough stopping power
    Once again; shoulda, woulda, coulda. That's what I mean by confirmation bias.

  6. #36
    Member Array HeadHunter's Avatar
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    Anybody ever come up with anything?

  7. #37
    Senior Member Array VBVAGUY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    ^
    But that happens with all calibers. You can't depend on any handgun to drop anyone like a rock. There's no sense carrying a .45 auto or 10mm or anything else with "stopping power" if you can't hit where you need to as often as you need to.

    Yup just like a few months ago there were some young gang bangers trying to show off with the G21 but for some reason could not get any hits on the target from 21 feet the minimum at the range I go to. They kept hitting very high and right at the white part of the target. God Bless

  8. #38
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    not sure what yur after here OP, but being a common sense kind of guy that I am, to me the smaller caliber gun you use in self defense the more crucial shot placement is.

    Especially when it come to stopping power. A .22 might kill someone in 20 minutes, but not before said BG empties all his magazines in a crowd.
    of people. We want to STOP someone from continuing an attack, and generally that is done from energy shock from a big heavy fast moving projectile. And to a point the bigger the better. WE want to dump ALL the energy into an assailant without overpenetration to innocents

  9. #39
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    OP - Take a look at the study in the sticky, "Firearms Stopping Power, a Different Perspective." If you look at "failures to stop," there is very little difference once you get to .380/.38 Spl and above.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  10. #40
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    I have to agree with a few others that I don't think any valid determination can be made as to the effectiveness of any caliber vs. shot placement - along with a lot of plain old dumb luck (good or bad) because there are simply too many cases on both sides of a caliber debate where either large or small has been instantly lethal or failed miserably. Here's some "conflicting" incidents:

    When I lived in rural Kansas 10 years ago, a 15 year old neighbor boy took a shot at a squirrel in a tree behind his house with his .22 rifle and immediately went down after the shot. His mother saw it from the kitchen window, ran outside, and found him DOA from a bullet straight through his heart. KSBI investigation later proved it was a double-riccochet from the .22LR bullet passing through the squirrel (also DOA) and sequencially glancing off two dead tree limbs to come straight back to him with still enough energy left to make the fatal wound.

    The "Son of Sam" serial killer shot 10 or 12 (can't recall exactly how many) victims at point-blank range from a distance of only a few feet with a .44 Special (pretty much equal to a .45ACP in ballistics); and his kill ratio was less than 50% - the other victims survived, many of whom had multiple wounds.

    Can't vouch for other states, but the Oklahoma Wildlife Dept. consistantly admits that more whitetail deer are killed every year by poachers using .22 rifles (less noise to attract attention) than all the deer taken during legal hunting season with everything else.

    Personal scary incident during my LE years when my partner and I arrived at the scene of a domestic called in by multiple neighbors in a low-rent complex. As we approched the bottom floor apartment, we could see a guy (later determined by the ME to be loaded up on meth) straddling a shreaking woman on the floor while in the process of sawing her arm off at the shoulder with a 12" butcher knife. As we rushed inside, my partner literally broke a nylon nightstick across the back of the perp's head with such force that it knocked him flat against his victim. Like nothing had happened "zombie man" raises up, gets to his feet, turns at my partner (with the knife still in hand) and said "I'm gonna get you white boy" as he slowly walked toward him. Things went terribly wrong at that moment when both of us quickly drew our .357 mag service revolvers (both loaded with HJHP ammo). Just as my partner yelled out "stop, drop the knife, or I'll shoot", screaming-mimi lurches off the floor (even with a huge gash to the bone in her shoulder) and attacked me screaming "you $#%& ain't hurtin' my baby" - knocking my revolver out of my hand with it sliding across the tile floor to the other side of the room. While I'm in a major wrestling match with a clawing wild-woman, I'm seeing my partner backing up toward the wall while emptying his .357 into the perp who kept walking toward him (knife still raised) like he was getting hit with ping-pong balls. Somewhere around my partner's 4th or 5th shot, I managed to quickly cold-cock the woman with an elbow while grabbing my .380 BUG out of my leg holster (which I still carry CC) in time to point-shoot the perp in the temple while he was still approaching my cotten-white partner against the wall holding an empty gun. All six of my partner's rounds completely penetrated the perp and were later dug out of either the wall on the opposite side of the room behind him or the wall behind that on the opposite side of the adjoining bedroom. While none of the rounds hit his heart or spine, the ME later said that every one should have been an "instantly fatal" wound.

    I'm sure there are plenty of documented incidents where a big gun or little gun was either instantly-fatal, later-fatal, or non-fatal that were all dependent on dozens of different factors of which the slightest change in either one would have resulted in a totally different scenario end result. I fully agree that caliber, bullet style, and velocity play a significant role (sometimes good and sometimes not good) which all can change with circumstances involved. However, there's still the major factor that a well-placed shot from any caliber is paramount over anything else.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by carverelli View Post
    not sure what yur [sic] after here OP
    I am looking for incidents where the would be victim shot their attacker with a small caliber weapon (.22, .25, .32, .380) and, after the shot was fired, was injured or killed by the predator. Only incidents involving Armed Citizens are relevant to this research
    Specific incidents.

  12. #42
    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeadHunter View Post
    Not trying to start a caliber war, but rather trying to quantify any data justifying the opinion that anything less than a 9mm/.40/.45/.500 S&W (take your pick) will not do the job in Private Citizen defense.
    In order for the information to be scientific, shouldn't you also include stories and statistics from people who were shot with larger calibers who also continued to fight and kill their victim?

    I don't like one-sided statistics. It would be collecting statistics of people who have died in accidents where they were driving a minivan. Then using that information to say that minivans are dangerous. Without also showing the death statistics of sedans, sports cars, SUVs, and pickup trucks, the information is nothing but a scare tactic.
    "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." -Plato

  13. #43
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    In order for the information to be scientific, shouldn't you also include stories and statistics from people who were shot with larger calibers who also continued to fight and kill their victim?

    I don't like one-sided statistics. It would be collecting statistics of people who have died in accidents where they were driving a minivan. Then using that information to say that minivans are dangerous. Without also showing the death statistics of sedans, sports cars, SUVs, and pickup trucks, the information is nothing but a scare tactic.
    Technically, including stories and statistics on people who were shot with larger calibers (9x19, .40, .45) and continued to fight would also be an argument against the smaller calibers.

    Why?

    The terminal ballistics of the bullets.

    If a BG is shot by, say, four rounds of .40 S&W and continues to fight and kill their victim, would four rounds of (insert small caliber here) be more effective in the same places?
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  14. #44
    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    If a BG is shot by, say, four rounds of .40 S&W and continues to fight and kill their victim, would four rounds of (insert small caliber here) be more effective in the same places?
    Hmm.. I can agree and disagree with this statement. I know one guy who carries a .22LR exclusively because he believes the .22LR is more lethal because it enters the body, but rather than exit it will bounce around. Take Gabrielle Giffords for example. She was shot through the head with a 9mm and survived. However, had that shot been a .22LR it is likely she would have died because the .22 would have continued to bounce around inside the skull.

    However, I would agree that in most cases the higher caliber stands the better chance of stopping an attacker.

    Despite all that, I would say rather than spend time trying to teach students how ineffective a particular caliber is, maybe time would be better spent teaching students that shooting somebody with any caliber may or may not stop the threat. The point is, people should understand that when they shoot somebody in self-defense, they need to have a plan-B to get out of danger if the gun doesn't work right away. Doesn't matter what caliber it is.
    "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." -Plato

  15. #45
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    Hmm.. I can agree and disagree with this statement. I know one guy who carries a .22LR exclusively because he believes the .22LR is more lethal because it enters the body, but rather than exit it will bounce around. Take Gabrielle Giffords for example. She was shot through the head with a 9mm and survived. However, had that shot been a .22LR it is likely she would have died because the .22 would have continued to bounce around inside the skull.
    The .22LR wouldn't have entered the skull in that situation.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

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