Small Cailber Failures

This is a discussion on Small Cailber Failures within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Preparing for my mousegun bloc of instruction at the MidAtlantic Tactical Conference, I am looking for incidents where the would be victim shot their attacker ...

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Thread: Small Cailber Failures

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    Small Cailber Failures

    Preparing for my mousegun bloc of instruction at the MidAtlantic Tactical Conference, I am looking for incidents where the would be victim shot their attacker with a small caliber weapon (.22, .25, .32, .380) and, after the shot was fired, was injured or killed by the predator.

    Only incidents involving Armed Citizens are relevant to this research, NOT Law Enforcement Officers. That is to say, I am looking for "mousegun" failures in the hands of Private Citizens.

    Not trying to start a caliber war, but rather trying to quantify any data justifying the opinion that anything less than a 9mm/.40/.45/.500 S&W (take your pick) will not do the job in Private Citizen defense.
    Some drink at the fountain of Knowledge, others just gargle.

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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    HH,

    You should start by contacting hospitals from select markets; Specifically research major metro areas where specific incidence of shootings are high (Atlanta, Chicago, NYC, DC, Baltimore, LA, NoLA, etc.) and from there contact the hospital(s) that specifically specialize in gun shot injurys and from there contact both the director of the ER triage as well as contact the hospitals morgue director...Per hospital as across the nation.

    These two persons would be best suited to answer your question AND provide quantifiable data toward the answer you seek, be it truth or false that low velocity small caliber handgun rounds are marginally effective at stopping (!), not just killing eventually, human beings.
    I would also think to touch base with the leadership among the city police for each of the locations you select as they will have hard data on the actuality of a given shooting in the immediate, where as hospitals only see the after effects.

    Combine the data from both and then you would have a clear picture with data that stands on it's own.
    The time involved to do this properly though is likely much more than what you have available to complete the project.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

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    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    I doubt you would be able to get much, if any information from health care providers. Too many privacy issues for them.

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    This isnt a failure like you asked for, but what the story does not tell is that the would be robber ran away after being shot once in the chest and once in the head. Had he been a more determined attacker and if he had actually loaded his own gun, it most certainly would have been a failure.

    http://www.kc3.com/news/first_test.htm
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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    I doubt you would be able to get much, if any information from health care providers. Too many privacy issues for them.
    No need for specific pateint information.
    Just shooting figures and survival rates as well as wounding types.
    No names, insurance carrier etc. type data required nor to be requested.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I remember a suicide where a guy shot himself in the chest with a 32acp, walked in the bathroom to look at the wound, went back to the bed, shot himself again in the chest, went back to view the damage, and finally died before he could get back to the bed for a third attempt. Don't know if this helps, but it has stuck with me to this day.

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    Senior Member Array DUNDEM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    This isnt a failure like you asked for, but what the story does not tell is that the would be robber ran away after being shot once in the chest and once in the head. Had he been a more determined attacker and if he had actually loaded his own gun, it most certainly would have been a failure.

    http://www.kc3.com/news/first_test.htm
    Good one. I dressing around atleast a 9mm or a Rhorbaugh R9 if I pocket caryy...lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    This isnt a failure like you asked for, but what the story does not tell is that the would be robber ran away after being shot once in the chest and once in the head. Had he been a more determined attacker and if he had actually loaded his own gun, it most certainly would have been a failure.

    http://www.kc3.com/news/first_test.htm
    Thanks for that input.
    Some drink at the fountain of Knowledge, others just gargle.

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    Anybody? Anything? Just one incident?
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    Had a friend here in Indy that owned a Amoco gas station at 49th and Penn. A former employee came in one night robbed and killed him. One shot to the head with a .32. My friend was a HIGH end gun guy, Pythons, custom 1911's, High Powers, etc, and SHOULD have known since it was a former employee the robber had to kill him. He complied with the robber instead of going for his carry piece. It cost him his life.

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    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    I saw a story online recently where a guy was shot in the nostril with a .22 and the bullet ricocheted and he swallowed it. The only long-term damage was he could no longer taste or smell. Sorry I don't have a link...it might have been on this forum somewhere.
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    VIP Member Array tkruf's Avatar
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    I know of an instance where a man was shot in the abdomen with a .22 pocket (Taurus PT-22 I believe), later died in the hospital from his wound.

    I think you'll find lots of stories on both sides of the wire on this one. Some saying small caliber doesn't work and some showing it does. It depends on shot placement, luck of whether or not it penetrates or bounces off (due to angle most likely), and whether the BG is high on something.
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    Its not a self defense shooting, but it is well documented; how about the attempted assignation of President Reagan? He was shot by 22 and didn't even know he was shot until the Secret Service checked him over and noticed he was bleeding. Was was a old man and wasn't attacking anyone amped up on drugs and he was able to function for a a period of time before he nearly died at the hospital. Like I noted, its not self defense, but it does illustrate a point.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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    Distinguished Member Array alachner's Avatar
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    I just saw a story in this forum about a Walther PPK jamming when a neighbor was trying to shoot three dogs that were attacking a woman. Here is the link: http://www.foxreno.com/news/24973101/detail.html.
    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. That's ridiculous... If I have a gun, what in the hell do I have to be paranoid for?" [Clint Smith - Thunder Ranch]

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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Its not a self defense shooting, but it is well documented; how about the attempted assignation of President Reagan? He was shot by 22 and didn't even know he was shot until the Secret Service checked him over and noticed he was bleeding. Was was a old man and wasn't attacking anyone amped up on drugs and he was able to function for a a period of time before he nearly died at the hospital. Like I noted, its not self defense, but it does illustrate a point.
    Thanks for that input.
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