Buffalo Bore +P 95 Grain JHP or +P 100 Grain Flat Nose in Sig P232

This is a discussion on Buffalo Bore +P 95 Grain JHP or +P 100 Grain Flat Nose in Sig P232 within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Does anybody have experience with either, or both rounds in a Sig P232? After getting several recomendations for this ammo I was looking into it, ...

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Thread: Buffalo Bore +P 95 Grain JHP or +P 100 Grain Flat Nose in Sig P232

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    Member Array dbramhall's Avatar
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    Buffalo Bore +P 95 Grain JHP or +P 100 Grain Flat Nose in Sig P232

    Does anybody have experience with either, or both rounds in a Sig P232?
    After getting several recomendations for this ammo I was looking into it, but found the following review posted on the Midway USA website regarding the +P 95 Grain JHP:

    "Feels significantly more powerful than standard FMJ in the hand. So powerful, in fact, that it forced a mag eject on my sig p232 twice at the range--I won't carry it because of that."

    I was actually going to buy the +P 100 Grain Flat Nose, but was a little concerned by this review. Just wanted to see if anybody else has had similar experiences when shooting +P in P232's.

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    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    No experience m'self with it...but why don't you just buy a box and try it? What doesn't work in one person's gun, in that one person's hands, may work just fine in your gun in your hands. FWIW, this is how I approach my carry ammo.

    Just a thought.
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    Member Array dbramhall's Avatar
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    That's my plan, but I figured I'd check here 1st and maybe save myself $ if others here have had the same problem.

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    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    I run both rounds in my Walther PPK and my Sig P238. Outa the two I prefer the 100gr HC FN stuff over the 95gr JHP. You should get more penetration from the heavier flat nose round over the JHP. IMO, you really can't go wrong with either, but the Flat nose round hits harder per the FPE numbers.
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    VIP Member Array automatic slim's Avatar
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    I agree with Cuda66. The ammo might perform just as you want in your gun, without any malfunctions. Although there's only 5 grs. difference in the two bullets, I'd opt for the HP for defense.
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    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    See the testing at www.goldenloki.com.

    FBI calls for 12-15 inches in gel. The .380 JHPs get 11-13, while FMJ (standard pressure) gets 16-17...after going through 2 layers of denim. IMHO there is no reason to go with the "+P" loads. And remember, there is no SAAMI spec for "+P" in .380, so you don't know what you are getting.

    I carry 2 LCPs while off duty. Right now I alternate FMJ with Hornady Critical Defense, but will switch to all FMJ soon to deal with Winter clothing.

    I might just stay with all FMJ. I've had correspondence with a trauma doc who also works with one of the "big training schools" and he states there is little evidence that JHPs (from a handgun) are better at stopping a threat than FMJ (based on examination of actual wound tracks). This is consistent with what I've read from other medical professionals. He states there is also little difference between flat points and round nose. Basically, you either hit a vital area, or you don't. If you do hit a vital area, then caliber and bullet type don't matter. If you miss a vital area...then caliber and bullet type don't matter.

    See a pattern here?

    The benefit of JHPs (per the doc) are really to limit the possibility of over-penetration. A JHP will not turn a marginal shot into a stopping shot - just ask the guy in NYC who absorbed 20+ 9mm JHPs and survived. In .380 over-penetration isn't as much of an issue, so you may as well load up with FMJ and spend your time training to put those bullets where they matter.
    Last edited by 10thmtn; October 10th, 2010 at 05:15 PM. Reason: spelling
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    Senior Member Array taseal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    See the testing at www.goldenloki.com.

    FBI calls for 12-15 inches in gel. The .380 JHPs get 11-13, while FMJ (standard pressure) gets 16-17...after going through 2 layers of denim. IMHO there is no reason to go with the "+P" loads. And remember, there is no SAAMI spec for "+P" in .380, so you don't know what you are getting.

    I carry 2 LCPs while off duty. Right now I alternate FMJ with Hornady Critical Defense, but will switch to all FMJ soon to deal with Winter clothing.

    I might just stay with all FMJ. I've had correspondence with a trauma doc who also works with one of the "big training schools" and he states there is little evidence that JHPs (from a handgun) are better at stopping a threat than FMJ (based on examination of actual wound tracks). This is consistent with what I've read from other medical professionals. He states there is also little difference between flat points and round nose. Basically, you either hit a vital area, or you don't. If you do hit a vital area, then caliber and bullet type don't matter. If you miss a vital area...then caliber and bullet type don't matter.

    See a pattern here?

    The benefit of JHPs (per the doc) are really to limit the possibility of over-penetration. A JHP will not turn a marginal shot into a stopping shot - just ask the guy in NYC who absorbed 20+ 9mm JHPs and survived. In .380 over-penetration isn't as much of an issue, so you may as well load up with FMJ and spend your time training to put those bullets where they matter.
    a 9mm FMJ will go in and expand to nothing, but a 9mm JHP will go in and expand to something around .50-.60. so you might have a better chance of hitting something. not to mention some ammo types have barb wire like ends on them that grab and rip through the vital organ and shred it where a FMJ just pretty much goes through it.

    and if you and I are talking about the same shooting in NYC, they were actually FMJs, not JHP. (3-4 officers opening up on a black guy in bronx)

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    Member Array chiefrcd's Avatar
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    I use both in my Sig 232 and have fired quite a few rounds and have never had a problem. Probably a bad or worn release.
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    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taseal View Post
    a 9mm FMJ will go in and expand to nothing, but a 9mm JHP will go in and expand to something around .50-.60. so you might have a better chance of hitting something. not to mention some ammo types have barb wire like ends on them that grab and rip through the vital organ and shred it where a FMJ just pretty much goes through it.

    and if you and I are talking about the same shooting in NYC, they were actually FMJs, not JHP. (3-4 officers opening up on a black guy in bronx)
    The IWBA did a study, which you can replicate. Get a life-size target, and draw the vitals on it - spine, heart, and brain. Shoot 100 9mm (.35) bullets into the target. See how many hit the vitals. Now, get a dull pencil, and make the targets about 1mm bigger (the approximate radius that a .45 is larger than a .35 bullet). Now count how many "near misses" are now "nicks." That's the difference. Comes out to a 4-7% difference, depending on whether the bullet expands or not. So, not really that much of a greater chance of hitting something with a larger bullet. And - a "nick" may not actually disrupt the vital area.

    As far as a "sharp JHP ripping" stuff - doctors who treat gun shot wounds cannot tell the difference between calibers or bullet types unless they recover the bullet. Those sharp barbs look cool in ads, but they apparently don't really make much of a difference in the real world.

    And the NYPD uses Gold Dot 9mm JHPs, if I recall.
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    Senior Member Array taseal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    The IWBA did a study, which you can replicate. Get a life-size target, and draw the vitals on it - spine, heart, and brain. Shoot 100 9mm (.35) bullets into the target. See how many hit the vitals. Now, get a dull pencil, and make the targets about 1mm bigger (the approximate radius that a .45 is larger than a .35 bullet). Now count how many "near misses" are now "nicks." That's the difference. Comes out to a 4-7% difference, depending on whether the bullet expands or not. So, not really that much of a greater chance of hitting something with a larger bullet. And - a "nick" may not actually disrupt the vital area.

    As far as a "sharp JHP ripping" stuff - doctors who treat gun shot wounds cannot tell the difference between calibers or bullet types unless they recover the bullet. Those sharp barbs look cool in ads, but they apparently don't really make much of a difference in the real world.

    And the NYPD uses Gold Dot 9mm JHPs, if I recall.
    So if the statements you say are the facts, why is not a single dept in the US not using FMJ ammo? for sake of not over penetrating? why not just use ligther bullets that have less chance of penetrating?

    Yes, they use Speer 124 GDHP. The incident I mentioned is actually the reason they switched to the GDHP, because the rounds went THROUGH the guy and bounced off the backdrop. after this they switched to the HPs.

    I have a video from Miami Dade PD about from couple months ago related to a shooting. the whole thing was caught on camera... You can see in the video the guy gets shot twice in the beginning of the video, then there is a struggle (the victim actually tackles the guy to the ground) with bullet wounds and blood everywhere. then a 2nd guy comes and SHOOTS him in the neck!!! he KEEPS figthing then they drag him to the corner and let out another 15 rounds into him. after the 10th one he stops moving

    the 2 calibers used were .38 and .40... They were unknown brand FMJs. had the BGs had Hollow points, that neck shot would have created such a cavity at impact, it would have probably blew through his neck...

    watching that video also made me start bringing a 2nd magazine. I couldn't believe it, 20 rounds, and up around to 5 rounds, he was still tackling/wrestling the guys

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    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Well, the US military uses FMJ.

    We're thinking of two different NYPD incidents. The one I was referring to happened recently - BG took 23 hits of 9mm Gold Dot, and lived. What does that tell you about the ability of JHPs to cause "massive" bleeding? What does that tell you about the primacy of shot placement?

    With 9mm and up, there is a very real danger of over-penetration with FMJ (how much energy the bullet would have after over-penetrating is debatable and situation-dependent). With .380, there is not really an issue with over-penetration.

    Carry whatever makes you feel comfortabe...but I've given up on the concept of the "magic bullet."

    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Police use JHP to make sure that the bullets don't exit the bad guy. Public Safety issue. "Don't shoot through the scumbag and hit another cop thus blowing the Worker's Comp budget and vacation days schedule..."

    Stopping power...eh. It's still a handgun. It's nothing to write home about.

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    Senior Member Array taseal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Well, the US military uses FMJ.

    We're thinking of two different NYPD incidents. The one I was referring to happened recently - BG took 23 hits of 9mm Gold Dot, and lived. What does that tell you about the ability of JHPs to cause "massive" bleeding? What does that tell you about the primacy of shot placement?

    With 9mm and up, there is a very real danger of over-penetration with FMJ (how much energy the bullet would have after over-penetrating is debatable and situation-dependent). With .380, there is not really an issue with over-penetration.

    Carry whatever makes you feel comfortabe...but I've given up on the concept of the "magic bullet."

    The military uses fmj because hague convention doesn't allow us to. Btw I'm in the army as well. Going to ocs after police academy. I'm enlisted now as 11B. :)

    I def agree with the statement on the magic bullet tho...

    I think they need to make incindeary pistol caliber rounds, that should to the trick lol

    A lot of ppl forget about the initial caviation when a bullet goes theough flesh or comes to a complete stop tho. That's the stage when everythind expands and tears **** up... lol

    I guess best tactic is aim at the heart, or the head and hope for the best

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    Senior Member Array taseal's Avatar
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    Look at the ft hood accident. Major was using a fn 57, and he took out several people with a round that most people say is underpowered cuz of it's size...

    Then you have incidents where people take several 9/40/45 rounds and still fight back...

    Maybe I should carry a pmr30. 30 rounds of .22 mag... Lol

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    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    People who believe in magic bullets usually believe in magic beans.

    Shoot people in the heart, brain or spine and they generally die.
    If you don't...they don't.

    That applies to NATO FMJ Ball or CorBon DPX.

    I would sooner rely on dark thamaturgy than on "magic bullets".

    (Bonsu points for correctly guessing which strain of RPG Geek I am...)

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