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.45 ACP with 616 ft lbs energy

32K views 38 replies 31 participants last post by  Hoganbeg 
#1 ·
.45ACP 185gr Nosler JHP

The fastest 185gr loading on the market! All in a package that is just shy of a +p rating!

Caliber : .45ACP

Bullet : 185gr. Nosler JHP

Ballistics : 1225fps - 616 ft./lbs. - 5" 1911


Pasted this from the Double Tap web page. Has anyone had any experience with this load? What is necessary for +P rating. This is the hottest load I have shot from a .45. Very nice with what I consider average recoil from stainless Wilson CQB 4".

12 Gauge:yup:
 
#2 ·
.45ACP 185gr Nosler JHP 1225fps - 616 ft./lbs.

Pasted this from the Double Tap web page. Has anyone had any experience with this load?
Yes, I've used it.

It's a handful, no doubt. On a light pistol, it really hits the hands hard, upon recoil. Assuming it works reliably in your gun, it's probably the best cartridge I can think of for a .45ACP. Very little smoke, blast is low though depends on the length of your barrel to match its stats, with enough recoil push and "snap" to grab your attention. Extremely smooth during cycling. I can't say much beyond range experience, as I have not taken it hunting or used it for other purposes.

Of all the cartridges I have used with 9mm and .45ACP, I can say that the DoubleTap flavors seem to be some of the smoothest and most reliable cartridges I have ever used. On a CZ P-01 9mm pistol, the 9mm JHP +P variant was utterly reliable, the best choice bar none. I wouldn't have any qualms using it in any .45ACP pistol in which I found it similarly reliable, assuming that the gun was heavy and long enough to handle the fair amount of "punch" this round has. In a 4" Wilson CQB where it's performing with flawless reliability, I would say it's probably the perfect choice. It would be mine.

About as close to a "12 gauge" as you're likely to get on a .45ACP pistol, 12 gauge. :tongue:

Highly recommended!
 
#4 ·
The lighter bullet allows the old .45 ACP's velocity to reach the levels of some of the newer or more popular cartridges. The trade-off is less penetration ability. John Browning originally created the .45 as a 200 grain round, which was upped to 230 by the military where it has rested comfortably ever since.

Which is better? Go ask someone who's been hit by both ... if they can answer.
 
#8 ·
Was going to post a separate thread but maybe this will work. Which does the most damage to the gun. A heavier bullet or a lighter bullet? Just thinking basic physics ( and that's dangerous) that for every action there is a equal and opposite reaction. My question is : that if I have a older gun, is it better to shoot .230 ball or a lighter round if I want to minimize recoil damage? All things equal with the 21000 psi SAMMI recommendation for a .45 Cal.
 
#10 ·
If I carried anything chambered in .45 I would avoid all 185 gr projectiles other than the barnes all copper bullets. Light for caliber loads (115gr 9mm, 135gr .40, 185gr .45) rarely come close to the performance of their heavier peers despite what dubious values like ft lbs energy may seem to suggest.
 
#11 ·
... despite what dubious values like ft lbs energy may seem to suggest.
How so? The measure of impact on the target (ft-lbs) along with the depth of penetration (inches) constitutes the two basic measurements of relative performance when comparing cartridges, doesn't it?
 
#13 ·
Double tap has been known to lets say stretch the results. (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=535992) first one I could find in under 10 seconds. But I have read it numerous times and wont use anything they make because of this. Plus +P or +P+ is still out on debate... You have to ask yourself if you have 4 top manufactures of ammo why would they be left in the dust by 1. Double tap to me almost fits into that ninja shock ammo category...
 
#15 ·
It used to be that a handloader could carefully assemble ammunition that would handily beat the muzzle velocities of the fastest factory loads if that was the direction the handloader wished to take. That ain't necessarily so in this present age. Between Buffalo Bore's offerings and this load from Double Tap the tables have turned.

I've attempted to build hot 185 grain loads for .45 ACP in the past but my best effort chronographed 1005 fps and was likely hard on the gun. I can see no way for a handloader to make even a nominally safe load that clocks 200 more feet-per-second than that fairly warm handloading effort. I'd love to know their secrets.

I tend toward the heavier end of bullet weights for any given cartridge anyway but the Double Tap information posted here is interesting.
 
#16 ·
.45ACP with 616 ft lbs

Well I must say that I was pleasantly surprised when I saw this posting !! I'm new to this site and as I was browsing I saw this and I said BINGO ! I had a .45 National Match and used to load my own . I also used 185 jhp and that was what I got for velocity (1225 fps) Most people wouldn't believe me. As for penetration I thought it was great ,also the expansion . Shooting into a hillside of moist dirt pile that was about 4 yrs old ,at 60 yds the penetration was around 7-8 ins. It would mushroom to a little over a nickle in size, with 95% weight retention. It's nice to know that others got the same results.


Seniorwelder
 
#18 ·
Having loaded and shot many different bullet/powder/velocity rounds through more than a few different .45acp guns, I have found any supersonic combinations have the following characteristics.
They are difficult to obtain using normal components in a safe manner.
They are hard on brass.
They are hard on the gun.
They are hard on the shooter.
They usually give less than good results.

John Browning was no fool.

Terry
 
#20 ·
So light bullets bounce off the skin and sting, and heavy bullets cause bruises and "hurt" more?

I don't think that's the best analogy.

I do like heavy bullets though - I'd rather have penetration than expansion, and light bullets just don't penetrate as well as heavy ones. Probably because of "science".

In any case - I wonder what the actual velocity is of the Doubletap 185 gr Nosler JHP load. There have been quite a few performance/claim irregularities once people started actually choronographing their ammo.

Austin
 
#21 ·
I picked up a box of these to try out. The recoil was nice, not harsh at all. They did throw out a nice fire ball, so that ups the fun factor a notch or two.
That trees going to be hard on my chainsaw in the spring time lol



 
#23 ·
It's the old bullet discussion of light and fast vs heavy and slow; for an everyday carry gun, I chose the .45acp for it's "big bullet". All the usual things considered, I've never had any good reason to carry anything lighter or smaller than the 230gr for self-defense purposes, and the gun seems to like it just fine.
 
#24 ·
Yes, that is correct. With FMJ you are going to get adequate penetration regardless of grain. Hollowpoints on the other hand can underpenetrate when a light projectile is driven to too high a velocity. I'd go 180 in .40. I carry 147gr in 9mm, but have no problems with 124 and 115 gr.
 
#27 ·
seems to me people are confusing weight with mass...
Confusing? How so?

As long as you're anywhere in the vicinity of the Earth's surface, weight & mass are proportional, so there's no issue with using the terms interchangeably. Just have to use the proper unit conversion if you want to talk mass, but when was the last time you heard someone refer to units of mass when referring to a bullet?
 
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#28 ·
as i understand it the faster something is moving the more mass it has and the more energy it carries, to paint a picture,
230g bullet@
1000fps=510f/lbs
1500fps=1148f/lbs
2000fps=2037f/lbs

as you can see mathing it up tells us that the faster you move an object, the more mass it has exponentially. as defined by einsteins famous E=MC2 ( energy= mass x speed of light squared )
even though the quanity of mass remains constent at 230g, relativistic mass increases the faster you go, 230g bullet traveling at the speed of light would have the energy equalivant of 4940.5 kilotons of TnT ( the two bombs dropped on japan combind equaled 38 kilotons)

so what we have learned today that velocity is more important then weight

you have to get the 9mm 115 grain up to 1400 fps (500.5f/lbs)to even come close to the 230g at 1000 fps (510 f/lbs)

now with all that in mind we look at real world balistics, and can make informed decision on our ammunition choices for the task at hand.
the faster you can get your bullet to travel the more energy it will hit with regardless of caliber, the choice you have to make is how hard you want your bullets to hit and work backward, determining what caliber you have to work with and how fast it has to go to get to the desired force.
 
#31 ·
Does anyone know why they picked a number of 185 grains for the lightweight .45?

It was simple. Its just a 230 grain bullet with a hollowpoint in it. Using the same powder charge, naturally, the lighter bullet went faster.

There was a trade off there. You had the full metal jacket bullets which were used in two world wars and several wars in between and since and they worked. They would tend to shoot through people being full metal jacket.
Then the though process came along that the bullet needed to stop in its intended target and dump all of its energy in it, rather than wasting some by going through.

So, hollowpoints were tried. The bullet became lighter, but it created a bigger wound cavity and it seemed to really "stop" a little better because human being being soft targets couldnt take the "shock' as well as a bullet that passed through.

This talk of ligther bullets not being as effective is just semantics and in the big scheme of things it dosent matter. Yeah, lots of people like to discuss it, but fact of the matter is...if you are trying to shoot through barricades or you are concerned about pentetration of hard targets then you arent using the proper tools for the job, you should be using a rifle, not a handgun.

Second, anyone that needs to be shot, ought to be shot more than once, so that puny 185 grain bullet shouldnt be an issue.Three 230 grain bullets equal 690 grains, it takes 4 285 grainers for a total of 740 grains so when in doubt just shoot until the threat ceases and you'll be good to go and able to later debate the value of a light bullet vs. a heavy bullet on a soft target on the gun boards until the cows come home.
 
#39 · (Edited)
Does anyone know why they picked a number of 185 grains for the lightweight .45?

It was simple. Its just a 230 grain bullet with a hollowpoint in it. Using the same powder charge, naturally, the lighter bullet went faster.

There was a trade off there. You had the full metal jacket bullets which were used in two world wars and several wars in between and since and they worked. They would tend to shoot through people being full metal jacket.
Then the though process came along that the bullet needed to stop in its intended target and dump all of its energy in it, rather than wasting some by going through.

So, hollowpoints were tried. The bullet became lighter, but it created a bigger wound cavity and it seemed to really "stop" a little better because human being being soft targets couldnt take the "shock' as well as a bullet that passed through.

This talk of ligther bullets not being as effective is just semantics and in the big scheme of things it dosent matter. Yeah, lots of people like to discuss it, but fact of the matter is...if you are trying to shoot through barricades or you are concerned about pentetration of hard targets then you arent using the proper tools for the job, you should be using a rifle, not a handgun.

Second, anyone that needs to be shot, ought to be shot more than once, so that puny 185 grain bullet shouldnt be an issue.Three 230 grain bullets equal 690 grains, it takes 4 285 grainers for a total of 740 grains so when in doubt just shoot until the threat ceases and you'll be good to go and able to later debate the value of a light bullet vs. a heavy bullet on a soft target on the gun boards until the cows come home.

I have to disagree with you on some points. First off, semantics is about word choice and what we call things, so I don't see that it applies here. What we are talking about here concerns physics and physiology, and in that bullet weight does matter. I'll agree with you that if we knew we were to be in a gun fight we would be using rifles. A pistol, of course, is an emergency tool to be used when you are caught without a rifle, or cannot carry one.

It has been proven that the single most important factor in stopping a bad guy is penetration into a vital target within the body; central nervous or cardioid-vascular systems. All else is secondary. The shock factor in a handgun bullet is negligible. If a lighter bullet will penetrate to those targets it will be as effective. If it expands more and does more damage to that vital target it may be more effective. For instance, if it makes a larger hole in an artery so as to create a quicker blood pressure drop. If it expands and thereby fails to reach deeply enough to penetrate that vital target it will be less effective. Therein lies the rub. Lighter bullets of the same caliber tend to penetrate less. Giving them more velocity tends to make them expand more, and do so more rapidly. So, because energy is more greatly affected by velocity we get more energy dump into the body. However, back to rule number one, if that energy dump doesn't take place in a vital place in the body, it is not effective as a stopper. I refer you to the FBI Miami shootout which could have ended without further grief if one of the first bullets to hit Platt had penetrated another inch. It stopped a half inch short of the aorta.

The total weight of lead you put into an attacker, 3rounds of one vs 4 of another, doesn't matter all that much if it doesn't go to the vital targets in the body. In Miami, Platt had been hit twelve times before being stopped by the twelfth round. I agree one must shoot until the threat stops, but you'll have a much better chance of accomplishing that using bullets that are more likely to penetrate enough.

Anyone who hasn't read the full report and conclusions of the FBI shootout should do so. Also, learn about sectional density and how it relates to penetration.

Finally, please note that I am not saying a 185 grain .45 bullet is inappropriate, that may be so, and would require testing to prove out. What I'm saying is it is less reliable because it is subject to more variables, therefore, I prefer to use higher weight-for-caliber (sectional density) bullets when I have the choice.
 
#37 ·
Why? If it's truly loaded to pressures below +P (23,000 psi), why wouldn't you shoot it in any ol' +P rated gun?
 
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