5.56/.223 penetration through brush? - Page 2

5.56/.223 penetration through brush?

This is a discussion on 5.56/.223 penetration through brush? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'm not going to get into a ballistic encyclopedia of all the in's and out's of each caliber. If you are happy with your Mini-14 ...

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  1. #16
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    I'm not going to get into a ballistic encyclopedia of all the in's and out's of each caliber. If you are happy with your Mini-14 and that is the gun you have, you make do with what you have! If you have to put 10 rapid fire rounds into the bush to ensure a good hit, then that is what you do.

    I have an AR-15 and it is scary accurate. I love it. But I am also a .30 cal fan as well. I used to have a Mini-30 which is in 7.62 x 39 and it was one of my favorite deer guns for down in the brush.

    For a SHTF situation, I believe it's always good to have something to reach out and touch someone and will also punch through light to medium brush. So, I have a FN-FAL in .308, a Winchester .30-30, a bolt action FN Mauser .30-06 and I also have a Russian SKS and plenty of ammo for all of them, so I pretty much have all my long arms covered for an TEOTWAWKO situation. Yet there are still a few long guns I wish to have and will probably get in the future. I may even sell off one or two of what I already have to get something else.

    If you can afford to get another rifle, I would consider getting a rifle in any of the various .30 cal loadings. A lever action .30-30 is more than fine. But also 7.62 x 39 like an SKS or any .308 would be great as well.

    If you are not in the mood for a new rifle, or just don't want to lay down the cash for another one, then I think you'll be just fine with your Mini-14.

    JMHO.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."


  2. #17
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    We have some really heavy-duty brush in this part of Texas and I've spent my life hunting, hiking, and just generally stomping around in it. I've never seen any brush that I could safely hide behind if bullets were headed my way.
    Charter Member of the DC .41 LC Society

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  3. #18
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    Well, looks like I might get some time to stop by the fun store tomorrow before heading to the trap range. I know they have some new & used lever guns in .30-30 in stock. Maybe I'll take a page from the gubment playbook and spend some of my bonus before I even get it...
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array LanceORYGUN's Avatar
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    I cannot think of any cases of rioting mobs attacking homes in residential neighborhoods. They generally target businesses and loot them. What interest would rioters possibly have in your home? Do you live next to commercial businesses?

    What you are envisioning here would be a most unusual and unprecedented scenario. I don't think that it is really practical to plan for such an extreme situation.

    Besides, I don't believe that the laws regarding self-defense change at all if a riot is taking place. A person still has to justify their shooting. Doing anything that would make that more difficult to do is not a good thing in my book.

    .

  5. #20
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    They do make a penetrator round for the 5.56. Just go with the steel core 62 grain lake city green tips.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanceORYGUN View Post
    I cannot think of any cases of rioting mobs attacking homes in residential neighborhoods. They generally target businesses and loot them. What interest would rioters possibly have in your home? Do you live next to commercial businesses?

    What you are envisioning here would be a most unusual and unprecedented scenario. I don't think that it is really practical to plan for such an extreme situation.

    Besides, I don't believe that the laws regarding self-defense change at all if a riot is taking place. A person still has to justify their shooting. Doing anything that would make that more difficult to do is not a good thing in my book.

    .
    Maybe you missed my post above where I explained that I've been in this very situation - twice - in my lifetime already?

    In southern Florida after Hurricane Andrew, I recall driving around in my HMMWV surveying the damage in residential neighborhoods. Some home owners had put up signs - "LOOTERS WILL BE SHOT." Those homes were relatively intact, other than for storm damage. Other homes, which had been abandoned by their owners, were picked clean of all useful items. So much for your theory of looters only targeting businesses...

    In Somalia, let's just say that the gangs with guns did whatever they wanted to whoever they wanted, and leave it at that.

    Desperate people do desperate things, while other people just need an excuse to engage in rogue behavior. We are a civilized people, until the food, electricity, and money run out...
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  7. #22
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    They do make a penetrator round for the 5.56. Just go with the steel core 62 grain lake city green tips.
    This is part of the issue with the 5.56 round. Penetrator FMJ rounds tend to be heavy and stable, and thus are resistant to tumbling. Their terminal effect can be poor in flesh, leaving "ice pick" wounds that do not do much to stop a threat unless you hit a vital area. We saw this with skinny combatants in Somalia - the 5.56 would zip through before it could start tumbling. High on "khat," the Somalis would sometimes not even know they were hit.

    The heavier .30 rounds, however, can plow through cover better, even with a JSP or JHP profile, I would imagine. More margin for error, and less worrying about whether you have the right bullet for the scenario - which can change in an instant.

    The more I think about it, the more I think I'm going to get something in a .30...if for no other reason that to have a back-up rifle in a defensive caliber. Right now, I only have my Mini 14. If I get a .30-something, that means my wife can use the Mini, which is relatively soft-shooting.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  8. #23
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    Cover is cover, bullets do not go through cover. There are varying degrees of cover too, something can be cover from a .22, but not cover from a .50BMG. If it is actual cover, you aren't going to be shooting through it.

    Brush is mostly concealment, it obscures, but does not protect. Your 5.56 will shoot through concealment. 5.56 can shoot through car doors, wooden doors, and all sorts of other stuff. It is still a rifle round. As far as terminal ballistics, the current issued round is ok, if you put it where you want it to go. Look into the Mk 262 round, it was designed for 1:7 twist barrels, and has a lot better terminal ballistics than the standard 5.56 round. If you need stories to back that up, I can tell them.

    But, get yourself a .30 something, it never hurts to have an extra rifle. I envision defense in a scenario like you are describing to be a layered kind of thing. My personal layers are 0-25 meters (shotgun with buckshot, pistol back-up), 25-300 meters (semi-automatic style rifles), over 300 meters (scoped bolt actions). I try to have at least two in each category. Do I think that I would need a 300 meter shot, no, probably not, but if I did, it is nice to know there is a .308 in the basement that I can make a shot at that distance all day with. I can probably do it with my M-4, we qual with M-16's out to 500 meters on a man sized target.
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  9. #24
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    Ma Duce. Cover is irrelevant.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    This is part of the issue with the 5.56 round. Penetrator FMJ rounds tend to be heavy and stable, and thus are resistant to tumbling. Their terminal effect can be poor in flesh, leaving "ice pick" wounds that do not do much to stop a threat unless you hit a vital area. We saw this with skinny combatants in Somalia - the 5.56 would zip through before it could start tumbling. High on "khat," the Somalis would sometimes not even know they were hit.

    The heavier .30 rounds, however, can plow through cover better, even with a JSP or JHP profile, I would imagine. More margin for error, and less worrying about whether you have the right bullet for the scenario - which can change in an instant.

    The more I think about it, the more I think I'm going to get something in a .30...if for no other reason that to have a back-up rifle in a defensive caliber. Right now, I only have my Mini 14. If I get a .30-something, that means my wife can use the Mini, which is relatively soft-shooting.
    I spent one hundred and ten days in Somalia so I know where you are coming from. I was just trying to give you some ideas. In my bug out vest I have 6 mags with standard ammo and two mags with green tips for barrier penetration. green tips are better than nothing. :) Before you ask, I was there with the Uss Tripoli and the 15th MEU.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  11. #26
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    Thanks for the suggestions, info, and replies.

    I went to the fun store, and walked out with a Marlin 336 package lever gun in .30-30. Comes with a factory bore-sighted scope (with see-through covers, a nice touch!) and a sling. Now I just need to get to the range to zero the scope, and get some more ammo for it. Only other accessory I can think to add is a butt cuff for carrying some spare ammo - otherwise it seems pretty good to go right out of the box.

    They also had a Yugo SKS that seemed unfired - covered in thick cosmoline. But, I went with the Marlin for ease of set-up and better scope mounting - and it's made here in the USA! Much as I've tried, I just can't seem to warm up to ex-commie guns.

    I think this Marlin will become my "old school assault rifle."
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckeyeLCPL View Post
    Cover is cover, bullets do not go through cover. There are varying degrees of cover too, something can be cover from a .22, but not cover from a .50BMG. If it is actual cover, you aren't going to be shooting through it.

    Brush is mostly concealment, it obscures, but does not protect. Your 5.56 will shoot through concealment. 5.56 can shoot through car doors, wooden doors, and all sorts of other stuff. It is still a rifle round. As far as terminal ballistics, the current issued round is ok, if you put it where you want it to go. Look into the Mk 262 round, it was designed for 1:7 twist barrels, and has a lot better terminal ballistics than the standard 5.56 round. If you need stories to back that up, I can tell them.

    But, get yourself a .30 something, it never hurts to have an extra rifle. I envision defense in a scenario like you are describing to be a layered kind of thing. My personal layers are 0-25 meters (shotgun with buckshot, pistol back-up), 25-300 meters (semi-automatic style rifles), over 300 meters (scoped bolt actions). I try to have at least two in each category. Do I think that I would need a 300 meter shot, no, probably not, but if I did, it is nice to know there is a .308 in the basement that I can make a shot at that distance all day with. I can probably do it with my M-4, we qual with M-16's out to 500 meters on a man sized target.
    Hey, I believe you about the Mk 262...but stories are always nice! My data set is getting a bit dated.

    I also used to plan on using the shotgun with buckshot outdoors for close range work. However, when I took a critical look around, I realized that there are just too many homes in all directions. Any shot would need to be an accurate one, and there is just too much risk of errant buckshot in the area where I live. That's why one of my requirements was for a scope.

    My shotgun is now going to be relegated to strictly "last line of defense in the safe room" duty.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    I spent one hundred and ten days in Somalia so I know where you are coming from. I was just trying to give you some ideas. In my bug out vest I have 6 mags with standard ammo and two mags with green tips for barrier penetration. green tips are better than nothing. :) Before you ask, I was there with the Uss Tripoli and the 15th MEU.
    Thanks for your service. I was really jealous of the LAVs that the Marines had...we had HMMWVs with no armor. We had Somali guides (who I did not trust) and no maps...never mind GPS. The doctors we escorted had short wave radios that could reach Europe...our FM radios could barely reach 20 miles...we were so far out in the middle of nowhere that we couldn't even call for help if we ran into trouble. Ah...the good old days...
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  14. #29
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    The 336 should do you just fine as a brush gun. What kind of scope did it come with? I have a Bushnell 3x9 on mine, that is on there only because I got the scope for free, and needed somewhere to put it. I never really use it at anything but low power at the ranges a .30-30 really excels at.

    The MK 262 was developed to be used in designated marksman rifles. It can reach out and touch really accurately out of a Mark-12, the manufacturer says 700 yards, and with a good rifle and shooter, it can do that. The round is seeing a lot of use in Afghanistan, and DM's are a huge squad asset, giving precision fires at ranges that used to be covered by automatic weapons. It also seemed like it hit with a bit more power than our M-16's with standard fmj.

    My shotguns would be relegated to the same kind of role in a SHTF scenario, only once the structure was compromised. I know my skills with an AR platform are up to par, no need to mess with a good thing.
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  15. #30
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    Barrett 50 BMG takes most cover outta the sight picture
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