Defensive Carry banner

5.56/.223 penetration through brush?

11K views 37 replies 15 participants last post by  Guns and more 
#1 ·
In the event of a need for neighborhood/area defense (looting, riots, etc) my go-to carbine right now is a 5.56mm Mini 14 Ranch Rifle with a scope. I live in a typical suburban area, with homes all around, so accuracy is a must (hence the scope). [Note - my Mini 14 is one of the newer ones, and is plenty accurate, so no Mini 14 bashing here, please.]

My concern is that there is also a fair amount of brush, vegetation, and trees in my area. In Vietnam, the 5.56mm got a reputation for being deflected by brush more than the heavier Soviet 7.62 x 39 used by our enemy. Also, the 7.62 got a reputation for better penetration through brush, which could turn cover into concealment.

So, my question is this - do I need something in .30-30 or 7.62 x 39, or is the modern 5.56 (especially in heavier bullet weights like 62gr or 77 gr) up to the task? While I carried the M16 in the Army, I (fortunately) never needed to shoot anyone with it, so I have no firsthand experience to draw on.

My sight lines are limited to 200 yards max, so I see no real need for something like a .30-06 or a .308, though I have considered them - I think there would be too much risk of over-penetration.

Thoughts? First hand experience?
 
See less See more
#2 ·
Somewhere in some old magazines I have from back in the 1970s/1980s there is an article in which gun writer came up with a "brush busting test" consisting of a large box with a bunch of dowel rods through which he fired. He tested all the "usual suspects" reputed to have brush bustin' capabilities but in the end found that the two cartridges that consistently got through his contraption with any semblance of accuracy were the 55 grain fmj .223 and the 110 grain fmj .30 Carbine of all things!

Not sure what this proves but it did come as a surprise.
 
#3 ·
Thanks for jogging my memory!

The guys at www.theboxotruth.com did similar testing. Here is their results summary:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot40_5.htm

Here is the result with 55 gr 5.56:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot40.htm

So, it seems brush may get the bullet sideways, but it will not deflect it much. If the BG is right behind some brush, no worries. If anything, getting the FMJ bullet sideways may increase its terminal effects.

If you need to fire through brush at a target way beyond (not my scenario where I live) then a heavier caliber will be somewhat better.

So...I might be better off stocking up on some heavier weight 5.56/.223 ammo than getting a whole new gun/caliber. Hmmm...:confused:
 
#4 ·
... So, it seems brush may get the bullet sideways, but it will not deflect it much. If the BG is right behind some brush, no worries. If anything, getting the FMJ bullet sideways may increase its terminal effects. ...:
Yup. I think I'd much rather take a 'through and through' than have a 5.56/.223 round key-hole me. Back when I qualified on the M-16 in 1983, they routinely key-holed the targets. We were told that wasn't necessarily a bad thing.
 
#5 ·
I am not an expert, but here is my personal "take".
Some background -
In the very early 60s, "observed" the following, in "real" situations.( CQ)
a. 5.56 - poor performance in the "brush". Deflection was a factor but it's failure to penetrate ( limited to LIGHT cover, Med - Heavy = nope.
b. 30 cal. carbine - fair performance in med. brush, but deteriorated over distance.
c. 7.62x39mm - good performance up to light trees
d. 7.62 NATO - Very Good, up to med. trees

I own a 5.56mm Mini 14 Ranch Rifle ( new version) & a 7.62 NATO ( SOCOM16) Here is my "take today ( based on training scenarios & hunting )
Modern "take"
a. 5.56 ( based on the "new" ammo avail.) - fairly good up to heavy brush, then iffy.
b. 7.62 NATO - enough said.

My personal opinion - In a Urban situation & in the hands of an typical shooter, the "mini is a good choice.( with proper ammo.) The reason I say this, is that with a 7.62 NATO, although very effective in turning "cover" into concealment" ( incl. autos), "collateral damage" is intensified.
Let us all hope & pray, we never have to put our "choice" into action

Puffer
 
#6 ·
I don't think "keyholing" is ever a good thing, and it certainly doesn't do much for accuracy. Much of the earlier M-16 keyholing lore was the result of mismatched bullet weight and rifling rate, and it still goes on today as evidenced by the various rifling rates offered in the ARs.

My experience with the .223 was in Wa St plinking rockchucks with 55 grn BTSPs. I once shot a coyote in the back of the head at about thirty yards as it ran away. The bullet disintegrated inside the skull and never exited. That turned me off as to using the cartridge for deer. It would definitely need a heavier bullet than what I loaded.
 
#7 ·
My concern is dealing with BGs taking shots from directly behind cover, which in my area consists of brush and trees. If the 5.56 keyholes upon hitting brush, it will still strike the target immediately behind. One of the factors in the terminal effect of the 5.56 is the round tumbling and fragmenting, which produces tremendous wounding. Keyholing will, if anything, magnify that effect.

BUT...one issue to be aware of is that the lighter 55 gr loads are more prone to tumbling, especially in the slower twist rate barrels. My Mini is a 1:7 twist, so it stabilizes everything from 55 to 77 gr bullets - good for accuracy, bad for terminal effect. The way to get around this is to get 77 gr JHPs or JSPs. You get the penetration and stability of the heavier bullet, while still getting good terminal effect due to bullet expansion (which is not something the military can use, due to their use of FMJ only).

Anything that will go through a tree is probably too much for a suburban area - too much risk of overpenetration. Besides, my Mini holds up to 30 rounds, so if I need a few to chew through some cover, there are still plenty left in the mag.

So...I started out thinking I might need a .30-30 or 7.62 x 39 to deal with brush, but now I'm thinking I might be better off investing in some heavier 5.56 JHPs or JSPs instead. Darnit - kinda was hoping to justify a new carbine.:embarassed:
 
#8 ·
10th, unless you live all by your lonesome, you need at least one decent "reach out and touch someone" long arm per competent shooter in the house. And if you DO live alone, then you need at least one long arm per shooting port (window), right? I hope that helps your justification.

But back to practical matters, bullet deflection. Think in terms of geometry: If your target is immediately behind brush, then even a 30 degree deflection of the bullet would hardly matter - the lateral deflection from your point of aim would only be a couple of inches. But if, say, the trees and brush were close to your house and the BGs are lurking 100 yards out, then the bullet deflection will indeed matter. In that case, I recommend cannister shot...

And just as a data point, the last time I shot at deer, I was in a large tree stand (affectionately dubbed "the condo" since it had walls and a roof!) shooting at some does trotting uphill at about 80 yards. I was so intent on my sight picture through the scope I saw the muzzle flash. I was swinging the gun after the first shot, and the does were oblivious to the gunfire until a shot went through a large tree branch, breaking it clean off and the branch crashed noisily to the ground! By "large" I mean at least the width of my palm, about 4 inches... branch was about 10 feet away. 168 grain .30-06 round... almost as good as a chain saw.
 
#9 ·
That's an interesting debate, actually. Unless you live in really wide open spaces, I'm not sure you can justify a self defense shot at "reach out and touch someone" distances.

In my area, it's a moot point anyway. You just cannot see much farther than about 200 yards at the absolute max. That's well within the capability of the 5.56, especially with a scope.

Here's another thought, though - as far as penetrating cover and brush...I do also have a 12 gauge shotgun, with a 20 inch barrel and rifle sights. As seen in the testing referenced above at TBOT...it seems a 12 gauge slug will plow through brush and probably small branches with ease. I currently do not stock slugs, and have never used them - I keep my shotgun loaded with buckshot for use inside the home. Any idea if you can hit with accuracy out to about 200 yards with them? If so, that might be another option.
 
#10 ·
10thmtn;1850324 I currently do not stock slugs said:
Depends on your definition of "accurate." I bet I could hit a refrigerator 8 times out of 10 at 200 yards with my rifle-sighted short-barrel 870, with the first 2 shots being "sighters." But hit the kill zone on a deer at 200 yards (say the size of a paper plate)? I'd be hard pressed to do that with my solid-receiver, scoped, fully-rifled slug gun shooting the best sabot slugs. Think of slugs at that range as "suppressive fire"!
 
#12 ·
OK, thanks. I also did some research after posting, and it seems slugs are out of consideration. With all the homes all around, I need more accuracy than that affords.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Thoughts?

I would say that shooting someone hiding behind vegetation would typically not be considered a valid self-defense scenario.

I would advise against even attempting such a shot, as it would put an additional onus on the shooting. And who wants any additional burden to be able to justify your shooting?

A civilian shooting in self-defense is nothing even remotely like being involved in a fire fight in Vietnam.

.
 
#13 · (Edited)
That depends. I was thinking of a temporary breakdown of law and order scenario...think roaming bands of looters or rioters. Some of whom may be armed, and who may decide to take pot shots at you from a distance, possibly from behind cover.

By way of background, I have some experience in this arena. We were deployed both to Southern Florida after Hurricane Andrew, and also to Somalia. So, I've faced mobs of angry, hungry people before. The good news is that if you take out the biggest trouble makers, the rest of the crowd tends to disperse fairly rapidly.

So, while I do not think this is a likely scenario, it is possible - and has happened before, even here in the USA (Hurricane Andrew, Katrina, various racial riots over the years, and etc). I also live only a dozen or so miles outside of a very large metro area...if the government starts cutting back on social welfare payments in this economy, things could get really ugly really quickly.

One of the considerations is that you need accuracy (in order to hit just the armed BG and avoid collateral damage), but you also need firepower, in case the crowd decides to rush you (unlikely in the face of gunfire, but can happen if they are close enough). Add in the need to penetrate light/moderate cover - but not so much power that you risk over-penetration.

If the Ruger Mini 30 could shoot the cheaper steel case Russian ammo, I would just save up for one (and a scope) and be done with it. [Edit - Spoke to Ruger this morning...they no longer warn against the steel case ammo. What they said was to avoid the military surplus stuff, due to hard primers and loose specs. The commercial ammo - Tula, Brown/Silver Bear, etc should be ok...but then the tech cautioned to try a box first before buying a whole case.:rolleyes: Still sounds to me like if you want to shoot cheap Russian ammo, get a Russian gun.:frown:]

As it is, I'm debating just getting heavier ammo for my Mini 14, or a package lever gun with a factory scope, or an SKS or an AK (and having to fiddle with it to mount a scope).

I have a headache!:confused:
 
#15 ·
Well if it's a brake down of sorts like you're refering to.

One or some are takeing cover behind brush and doing pot shots and what not.

I will saturate the area with a good amount of rounds from my rifle of choice I can tell you that. most likely it'd be 5.56 Nato Ball 55gr. M855.

I'm sure I'd break down that brush with the first several rounds...but the last several will have a better chance of hitting the threats. plus the splinters flying around would also help...pretty good psychological effect too.

Plus the wife with the shotty using slugs. For some reason she gets all "juiced" when she shoots my 870..yells "YEAH!".
 
#16 ·
I'm not going to get into a ballistic encyclopedia of all the in's and out's of each caliber. If you are happy with your Mini-14 and that is the gun you have, you make do with what you have! If you have to put 10 rapid fire rounds into the bush to ensure a good hit, then that is what you do.

I have an AR-15 and it is scary accurate. I love it. But I am also a .30 cal fan as well. I used to have a Mini-30 which is in 7.62 x 39 and it was one of my favorite deer guns for down in the brush.

For a SHTF situation, I believe it's always good to have something to reach out and touch someone and will also punch through light to medium brush. So, I have a FN-FAL in .308, a Winchester .30-30, a bolt action FN Mauser .30-06 and I also have a Russian SKS and plenty of ammo for all of them, so I pretty much have all my long arms covered for an TEOTWAWKO situation. Yet there are still a few long guns I wish to have and will probably get in the future. I may even sell off one or two of what I already have to get something else.

If you can afford to get another rifle, I would consider getting a rifle in any of the various .30 cal loadings. A lever action .30-30 is more than fine. But also 7.62 x 39 like an SKS or any .308 would be great as well.

If you are not in the mood for a new rifle, or just don't want to lay down the cash for another one, then I think you'll be just fine with your Mini-14.

JMHO.
 
#17 ·
We have some really heavy-duty brush in this part of Texas and I've spent my life hunting, hiking, and just generally stomping around in it. I've never seen any brush that I could safely hide behind if bullets were headed my way.
 
#18 ·
Well, looks like I might get some time to stop by the fun store tomorrow before heading to the trap range. I know they have some new & used lever guns in .30-30 in stock. Maybe I'll take a page from the gubment playbook and spend some of my bonus before I even get it...:tongue:
 
#19 ·
I cannot think of any cases of rioting mobs attacking homes in residential neighborhoods. They generally target businesses and loot them. What interest would rioters possibly have in your home? Do you live next to commercial businesses?

What you are envisioning here would be a most unusual and unprecedented scenario. I don't think that it is really practical to plan for such an extreme situation.

Besides, I don't believe that the laws regarding self-defense change at all if a riot is taking place. A person still has to justify their shooting. Doing anything that would make that more difficult to do is not a good thing in my book.

.
 
#21 ·
Maybe you missed my post above where I explained that I've been in this very situation - twice - in my lifetime already?

In southern Florida after Hurricane Andrew, I recall driving around in my HMMWV surveying the damage in residential neighborhoods. Some home owners had put up signs - "LOOTERS WILL BE SHOT." Those homes were relatively intact, other than for storm damage. Other homes, which had been abandoned by their owners, were picked clean of all useful items. So much for your theory of looters only targeting businesses...

In Somalia, let's just say that the gangs with guns did whatever they wanted to whoever they wanted, and leave it at that.

Desperate people do desperate things, while other people just need an excuse to engage in rogue behavior. We are a civilized people, until the food, electricity, and money run out...
 
#22 ·
This is part of the issue with the 5.56 round. Penetrator FMJ rounds tend to be heavy and stable, and thus are resistant to tumbling. Their terminal effect can be poor in flesh, leaving "ice pick" wounds that do not do much to stop a threat unless you hit a vital area. We saw this with skinny combatants in Somalia - the 5.56 would zip through before it could start tumbling. High on "khat," the Somalis would sometimes not even know they were hit.

The heavier .30 rounds, however, can plow through cover better, even with a JSP or JHP profile, I would imagine. More margin for error, and less worrying about whether you have the right bullet for the scenario - which can change in an instant.

The more I think about it, the more I think I'm going to get something in a .30...if for no other reason that to have a back-up rifle in a defensive caliber. Right now, I only have my Mini 14. If I get a .30-something, that means my wife can use the Mini, which is relatively soft-shooting.
 
#23 ·
Cover is cover, bullets do not go through cover. There are varying degrees of cover too, something can be cover from a .22, but not cover from a .50BMG. If it is actual cover, you aren't going to be shooting through it.

Brush is mostly concealment, it obscures, but does not protect. Your 5.56 will shoot through concealment. 5.56 can shoot through car doors, wooden doors, and all sorts of other stuff. It is still a rifle round. As far as terminal ballistics, the current issued round is ok, if you put it where you want it to go. Look into the Mk 262 round, it was designed for 1:7 twist barrels, and has a lot better terminal ballistics than the standard 5.56 round. If you need stories to back that up, I can tell them.

But, get yourself a .30 something, it never hurts to have an extra rifle. I envision defense in a scenario like you are describing to be a layered kind of thing. My personal layers are 0-25 meters (shotgun with buckshot, pistol back-up), 25-300 meters (semi-automatic style rifles), over 300 meters (scoped bolt actions). I try to have at least two in each category. Do I think that I would need a 300 meter shot, no, probably not, but if I did, it is nice to know there is a .308 in the basement that I can make a shot at that distance all day with. I can probably do it with my M-4, we qual with M-16's out to 500 meters on a man sized target.
 
#27 ·
Hey, I believe you about the Mk 262...but stories are always nice! My data set is getting a bit dated.

I also used to plan on using the shotgun with buckshot outdoors for close range work. However, when I took a critical look around, I realized that there are just too many homes in all directions. Any shot would need to be an accurate one, and there is just too much risk of errant buckshot in the area where I live. That's why one of my requirements was for a scope.

My shotgun is now going to be relegated to strictly "last line of defense in the safe room" duty.
 
#26 ·
Thanks for the suggestions, info, and replies.:smile:

I went to the fun store, and walked out with a Marlin 336 package lever gun in .30-30. Comes with a factory bore-sighted scope (with see-through covers, a nice touch!) and a sling. Now I just need to get to the range to zero the scope, and get some more ammo for it. Only other accessory I can think to add is a butt cuff for carrying some spare ammo - otherwise it seems pretty good to go right out of the box.:danceban:

They also had a Yugo SKS that seemed unfired - covered in thick cosmoline. But, I went with the Marlin for ease of set-up and better scope mounting - and it's made here in the USA! Much as I've tried, I just can't seem to warm up to ex-commie guns.:redface:

I think this Marlin will become my "old school assault rifle.":tongue:
 
#29 ·
The 336 should do you just fine as a brush gun. What kind of scope did it come with? I have a Bushnell 3x9 on mine, that is on there only because I got the scope for free, and needed somewhere to put it. I never really use it at anything but low power at the ranges a .30-30 really excels at.

The MK 262 was developed to be used in designated marksman rifles. It can reach out and touch really accurately out of a Mark-12, the manufacturer says 700 yards, and with a good rifle and shooter, it can do that. The round is seeing a lot of use in Afghanistan, and DM's are a huge squad asset, giving precision fires at ranges that used to be covered by automatic weapons. It also seemed like it hit with a bit more power than our M-16's with standard fmj.

My shotguns would be relegated to the same kind of role in a SHTF scenario, only once the structure was compromised. I know my skills with an AR platform are up to par, no need to mess with a good thing.
 
#32 ·
The 336 should do you just fine as a brush gun. What kind of scope did it come with? I have a Bushnell 3x9 on mine, that is on there only because I got the scope for free, and needed somewhere to put it. I never really use it at anything but low power at the ranges a .30-30 really excels at.
The scope just says "Marlin" on it, and judging by the poor English on the scope's instruction booklet, I'd say it was made in China - despite the "Made in USA" emblazoned on the rifle's box.:tongue:

Given that the whole package deal was less than $500, I wasn't expecting a great scope, but it seems fine for the task. It's a variable 3-9 X, 32 mm unit. I agree on keeping it set to low power - I can't see past 200 yards anywhere around here anyway.
 
#33 ·
I'm having a hard time finding anything talking about the manufacture of that scope. I still have the package deal 3-9 that came on my Savage .308 on it, it does ok, but not great.

One option for you to look at if you want to upgrade the scope, is the new Redfield line of scopes, manufactured by Leupold. I put their new production 4x12 on one of my rifles, and for the price, I have been impressed with it, and it is made in the U.S. I don't think there is a scope in that line over $300, and mine hasn't had a problem yet with recoil from a .308.
 
#36 ·
Here's where "facts" are questionable.
On another site people had proof that a .223 bullet does not penetrate drywall very well because it disintegrates.
Now, you're telling me that a .223/.556 will cut through brush without disintegrating? (and wooden dowels)

I guess it's just a "magic" bullet.
 
#37 ·
There are many, many different types of 5.56 and .223 bullets. They can have vastly different performance, depending on the target type, the barrel length, the twist rate of the barrel, etc.
 
#38 ·
I agree.
So when someone posts and says, that it is "Easily provable that a shotgun or .45 handgun will penetrate more than a .223 in drywall", they are omitting, "If you select the bullets that make my statement hold water."

.....and they could show that a .223 doesn't penetrate brush very well at all.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top