This is a discussion on .357 Magnum or .38 For Home and Street???? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Ghettokracker71 that means 9 rounds flying into, and penetrating into who knows what!? Well if that's the case, you definitely want something ...
And out of those millions, a VERY VERY small percentage of people are actually put to the test. The majority of those people will NEVER be in a situation as stressful as a self defense situation with guns. I don't care if even the best weekend warrior shoots paper and trains 100 time a week. Until you are put to the test, you have no idea your result. Its a simple study of averages. The more bullets one has the better the chance of hitting their target.
If you talk to the folks who study such things you will find most bullets do not hit the bad guys in most shooting situations.
I recently was discussing a report with a LEO where they studied hit ratios within multiple types of firefights. The study concluded that about 80% of the bullets missed their targets.
Of course, there are exceptions to every study but it was speaking in generalities.
Anyone who wants to e-argue the obsure details to the point of nausea ...have at it. I will pass.
I will stick with my 15+ round semi-auto's and leave my mucho loved wheel guns for the range. It's not hatin, its just a perspective that many of the pro's I know agree with.
Not to be a smart @55 or anything, but I think if you have to ask that question, you should use the 38 spl.
I have no intentions of getting in an arguement about it.
The one point I would make is that in addition to having the additional rounds, the untrained must also have the time/opportunity to use them.
I also generally carry a 15 +1, primarily because I have come to believe in burst fire.
"I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".
If you can handle the full magnum loads in the .357 then by all means, shoot the magnum loads. Generally speaking, you want as large and as powerful a caliber which you can handle well when facing a lethal threat.
A lot of people find that the full magnum loads to be quite a handful in the snub nose 2.5" guns. In that case, you are certainly allowed to shoot regular .38 spl. or .38 spl. +P loads in your .357 magnum pistol.
Understanding that any handgun caliber is marginal at best as an effective fight stopper, naturally most people will want to go with something as large as they can handle both in recoil, as well as in accuracy and shot placement. Let that be your guide, and not a particular caliber.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
I submit that you must be realistic about the applications of self defense as it pertains to you, and your skill level. I am going to go against the common thinking here and say if you are not an accomplished shot with a wide variety of guns, pocket guns should be ruled out, as they are more difficult to shoot well. Go with a 38 over the magnum, and most importantly, buy a full sized 4 inch gun that is easier to shoot, as hitting the target is the main priority no matter the caliber. By the time you have mastered that, you will have more firearm exposure, and hence, a better idea about your needs, goals , and what's available out there to meet those objectives.
Most "walls" are sheetrock... even outer walls are sheetrock, installation and siding... and not much there to stop a bullet. Now, if you are talking a brick or cement wall, that's a different question.... many still will make the trip thru brick but won't have near as much momentum once they do. Any caliber will do damage to a bystander. If you are saying ... thru the BG and then into a bystander, then the higher calibers in a FMJ would have more potentional to accomplish that.
The Germans in Poland, were lining up citizens and mass killing them .... in order to save on ammo they started having people stand in a line..... shooting the first one in the line in the head, and the bullet traveling thru the 2nd and 3rd person as well, killing them all with the same bullet. They found that it would normally kill 3 of them, and up to 5 if they did it right and got them in close to each other. I believe they were shooting a 9mm Luger. Some officers used .32 calibers, and it would still kill 3 people. They found a rifle was even more effective... and it's said it would kill even more people who were lined up close with each other. I've seen the films of it, and it was as they say..... very effective, doing a lot of damage to the last people in the line.
I do and don't recommend seeing the films.... do, so you know how coldy it was done and how many people they were destroying with no thought about it at all. They were very methodical and matter of fact about it. But, not.... because they are all gruesome and will stick with you forever as to how cruel and detached some people can be towards other human beings.
I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."
What does this statement really say?
"I don't care if even the best weekend warrior shoots paper and trains 100 time a week. Until you are put to the test, you have no idea your result. Its a simple study of averages. The more bullets one has the better the chance of hitting their target."
Would that be a simple study of averages rather than a complicated study of averages?
Silly me. I always thought that shot placement is where it's at but it's having lots of bullets all along.
Oh well, I think I'll just give up now and concentrate on coin collecting. What's the use?
“No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”
Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893
Sometimes, it's just too easy.I would never consider a wheel gun for self defense because the average joe will miss the target 80% of the time when under stress.
Without references, but from memory, I believe the stats in question go like this: In the FBI study of a decade of LA police shooting engagements, LEO had an accuracy rate of approximately 18 percent. Call it 1 shot in 5 hitting the target.
On the other hand, licensed CC owners have a documented hit rate of around 70 percent. Way, way better than LEO.
The reason for this discrepancy is that, contrary to what most people would think, most law enforcement guys don't practice and they're pretty lightly trained. They don't expect to use their guns and they rarely, if ever, do. (Regional stats will vary, depending.)
Of the very small number who actually do have to draw, few will have to fire. Of those, the ones who do fire will usually be investigated, put on suspension, etc. So it's not like most cops are crack shots who practice and drill constantly and are expert marksmen with abilities far superior to the "average" Joe.
Then you have people like us, who study and train regularly, who do the mental thing in addition to the physical kinesthetic practice, and who spend big dollah for extended training. And people like me, who train in IPSC and free-fire drills at open ranges, working out kinks in handling and gunning on the run from various postures at various kinds of targets.
So. No. My accuracy in a pressure situation will probably be better than 20 percent. I won't know for sure unless or until, and it will depend on what's happening, but I don't train to miss and I don't carry on the assumption that I will.
And, all that said, I switched from a wheel gun to a high-capacity semiauto because I actually do want lots and lots of rounds onboard and I want the fastest possible reloads. Yet most of my career is with wheel guns and I've found those to be MUCH more accurate, and dead reliable. For CCW, I go semiauto, but for HD I'm grabbing the 12 gauge or the 686.
Which brings us back around to the OP. My suggestion is to use .38 for general training and practice. The +P version is close to a .357 in felt recoil but a lot cheaper and so you use that for running 100 rounds in a training session. Then you run 25 or so .357s. Train with .38s for the most part, and use .357 for defense.
In a critical situation, the adrenaline will make the .357 feel like .22, trigger pull will be nonexistent and you won't remember much afterward. You carry .357 when you don't want to play around. For CC I'm currently going with 9mm because for the same size and weight I like having 18 ready to go in a very compact package.
"It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."
Most private citizen use of deadly force scenarios are pretty straightforward incidents involving a relatively simple attack/defensive response at a range usually confined to a house or some other area. Le shootings usually involve more complicated sets of circumstances, such as vehicle pursuits, foot chases, hostage scenarios, and a wide array of situations not commonly encountered by Joe Blow.
Those statistics are grossly twisted and demonstrate nothing but the wishful thinking. It is true that many LE are not gun people, but do not think for a second that your Guns an Animosity magazines and week end warrior pseudo combat training is enough to place yourself on the same level of expertise as the continued and annual training of the average LE.
Explain how they are "grossly twisted." I take exception to your remark.Those statistics are grossly twisted
Then again, I'm not an LEO fetishist and I don't think they are very well trained (on the whole). Every now and then you run across a cop who actually does train, but most don't. They do their annual qualifiers and that's about it. The majority of them are less trained and less capable than the enthusiast.
That isn't a dig at them, it's just an observation of fact. Marksmanship is something you have to work at, and most cops don't do that. Some do. Most don't. They've told us that themselves.
"It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."
Welcome to the forum,
As open as your question is, so are the answers you’re likely to receive. At the very least, it appears that you favor the revolver for the joint task of home defense and street. I would let that be your starting point and go from there.
Try different loads of .38/.38+P and work to a level of proficiency you’re comfortable with. You should know that some .38+P actually comes fairly close to the effectiveness of the .357 cartridge. With consideration to over penetration, controllability and stopping power, I may be more inclined to carry the Buffalo Bore 158 SWC. In the end, it’s a personal preference that’s not always supported by technical firing tables you may find on the net.
“Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
~ Stephen King