Cirillo On The 9mm...

This is a discussion on Cirillo On The 9mm... within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Archie: Well said...........................

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Thread: Cirillo On The 9mm...

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
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    Archie:

    Well said........................

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  3. #17
    Member Array LeftofMars's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXxplosive View Post
    "New York City police officers are now carrying full metal jacket 9mm loads in their sidearms...What Say You...............?
    It still beats a bag of rocks and a sharp stick.
    "Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back."
    Captain Malcom Reynolds "Firefly"

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sentioch View Post
    A hollow point bullet expands to nearly twice the diameter. For a 9mm bullet that expands to 0.62", by the circle equation, the cross sectional area of the bullet path is increased from 0.1 inches squared to 0.3 inches squared; that is 3 times the area. The volume of disrupted tissue in the roughly cylindrical wound cavity is also tripled.

    The probability of disrupting the CNS is, therefore, tripled...as is the number of non-central nerves that will be sending pain signals to the brain, as well as the probability of disrupting any other major organs.

    Because the bullet has a larger cross sectional area it stops faster and delivers a much larger impulse force. Whether or not you believe in hydrostatic shock, there is no doubt that a greater amount of force is going to deliver more "shock" to the body. If you are not aware, simply providing a shock nearby to the heart can easily disrupt the beating cycle and result in death. My heart has been stopped resulting in complete unconsciousness (effective within 5 seconds) and temporary death on two occasions, in both cases due to a seemingly modest punch to the chest over my heart with probably less force than would be delivered by a bullet impact.

    Not only does the overall diameter of a hollow point bullet increase, but the shape of it generally changes from a smooth rounded surface to a spiky jagged surface. Each one of these jagged bullet "blades" will deliver a greater amount of force to a smaller area allowing it to more effectively slice through meat rather than just perforating a small hole and squeezing through. I don't know about you, but if an object is going to be passing through my body, I would prefer it to be a smooth round small object rather than a large spiky ball of hell.

    Bleeding to death is too slow, but "death" is not synonymous with incapacitation. Incapacitation means threat neutralized. It does not take long for blood flow to be reduced from the brain causing one to feel faint and pass out. For a lot of people, simply seeing the sight of blood will induce this effect. Part of it is emotional. The larger the hole, the more shocking it is to the person, the more nerve signals are firing, the more organs that are damaged...the faster this effect is going to take hold of a person and cause them to start to drift out of consciousness.

    Can you count on this to work for every single person in the whole wide world? Probably not. There are always super human stories out there. But to say that anything that does not hit the CNS is a useless shot is downright ridiculous. I could blow both your legs clean off your body with a cannot without affecting your CNS, and you know, I would consider that a threat neutralized even if you didn't instantly drop dead.

    My personal feeling, for the reasons described above, is that JHP bullets are a huge step up from FMJ.
    Nerves are a linear target. A larger bullet does not have 3 x the probability of hitting one than a smaller bullet. You can shoot 100 9mm rounds at a target with the major nerves outlined on it, and then count the hits. Make the targets wider by 1mm (about the difference between a 9mm and a .45) with a dull pencil, and see how many near misses are now barely hits. The difference will not be significant.

    As far as slicing and dicing - some JHPs have jagged points (when fired into gel), while others open up into a rather smooth mushroom shape.

    I don't think that you can compare blunt force trauma to a bullet impact - but any medical folks can feel free to chime in here.

    As far as incapacitation due to bleeding - some folks can continue to function for some 20-30 seconds with their heart destroyed. Plenty of time to kill you. Witness an off duty NYPD officer who was shot in the heart and died, but still managed to shoot and wound both armed robbers who attacked him (one was a loser actor for the "Sopranos").

    I never said that hits to other than the CNS are useless. Anything that can slow down an attacker is good. BUT - I would not count on anything OTHER than a CNS shot to quickly stop an attack. Witness the thug who was on top of an officer, beating him severely and trying to get the officer's gun...he was shot by a passerby in the head with a .45 (this after 4 hits with .45 and 1 hit with .40 from the officer)...he looked up, rolled on his back, and tried to get back up twice before finally expiring. So - even hits to the head are not a guarantee.

    I've asked this question of some medical folks who are in the know, and the reply was a definite maybe...JHPs do help limit the possibility of a shoot-through, but they won't turn a poorly placed shot into a stopping shot.

    Personally I like the wisdom that has been attributed to a Navy SEAL..."If I shoot you twice in the chest and once in the head, caliber [and the type of bullet] won't matter."

    Now I'll go make some popcorn.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  5. #19
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    And, for the record, I'm pretty sure the NYPD uses JHPs nowadays anyway.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
    www.armedcitizensnetwork.org - member
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  6. #20
    Distinguished Member Array bigmacque's Avatar
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    How do you account for luck?

    I'm thinking of the incident involving a state trooper, former marine that went about 6'2" and about 225lbs, grappling with some fat-axx BG that tried to go for the troopers gun. The trooper pushed him off, put five - that's 5, count 'em - rounds from a .357Mag into the BG, who reengaged the trooper in some wrestling, put a .22 under the troopers armpit, fired one round, nicked the troopers aorta, and the trooper died and the fat-axx is still living.
    I'm in favor of gun control -- I think every citizen should have control of a gun.
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  7. #21
    VIP Member Array jwhite75's Avatar
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    In my experience, there is a difference internally. No I cant look at a wound or a hole and immediately tell you 9mm vs 40 or 45 etc, but JHP vs FMJ, I will have to say yes. If they did no better or worse in this case, then there would be no real need for a JHP to exist...
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  8. #22
    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
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    " Nevertheless , Cirillo carried ammunition in which he had more confidence,such as custom- loaded hollowpoint 110 grain Super Vels, traveling at 1,125 fps". From "Tales of the Stakeout Squad" page 40.

    "In June 1972, the NYPD began issuing ammunition with the lead semiwadcutter bullet, and the first unit to get it was the Stakeout Unit. The switch was justified on the basis that the flat-nose semiwadcutter was less likely to ricochet, less likely to overpenetrate, and more effective as an antipersonnel round because it made a clean,distinct wound channel and was less likely to veer off if it hit bone. Cirillo considered it a significant improvement". From "Tales of the Stakeout Squad" page 41.

    "If your concerned with concealment, your firearm should be reduced in size and bulk but not in power.I would not use anything below a 9mm, and I would consider even a 9mm marginal and would try to use +P or better ammo in it.The Glock 27 in .40 S&W would be my choice.In my own case, if I were still on the NYCPD Stakeout Squad, the mini Glock would be my second gun and the Glock 21 in .45 ACP would be my main weapon. My present favorite carry guns are a Smith & Wesson double-action-only .40 S&W and a Glock 23 in .40 S&W". From "Guns, Bullets and Gunfights page 116.

    "When you get into a gunfight, you will wish you had the biggest, heaviest, largest bore handgun you could get your hands on". From "Guns, Bullets and Gunfights" page 116.

    All quotes by Jim Cirillo.
    "Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

    "A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves".

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  9. #23
    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
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    And..............I'd say he knew what he was talkin' about.
    Sometimes it pays to heed the advice of knowledgable people with experience rather than run on assumption and opinion.
    JMO.........

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I wonder what he would say about the glock 19 with 15 rounds of 124 grain +p ammo loaded to a velocity of 1300 fps with modern bullet technology?

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
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    Info from a recent NYPD shooting.......

    http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Wea...ht-Sooner.aspx
    "Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

    "A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves".

    http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old School View Post
    " Nevertheless , Cirillo carried ammunition in which he had more confidence,such as custom- loaded hollowpoint 110 grain Super Vels, traveling at 1,125 fps". From "Tales of the Stakeout Squad" page 40.
    Wow! If that was only a little heavier and a little faster it would be equal to what he calls "marginal". I can see why he was so confident in it.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  13. #27
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Modern 9mm is more than adequate.

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    While I personally would not consider the 9mm, with current load and bullet technology "marginal", personal experience leads me to understand his confidence in Super Vel at that time.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXxplosive View Post
    And..............I'd say he knew what he was talkin' about.
    Sometimes it pays to heed the advice of knowledgable people with experience rather than run on assumption and opinion.
    JMO.........
    So do you base your computer decisions on Bill Gates statement from 1981 that you don't need more than 640k of ram? I mean he is pretty knowledgeable and has experience with computers right?

    Cirillo's gunfights and their ballistics are from that era. While some people might be perfectly happy with their retro tech goodies some of us choose to move on.

    Time marches on. We can choose to march with it, or be left behind.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
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    Guess I just hold the comments of people who have been there done that and not just talk based on opinion..................
    Would much rather hear from an expert than someone who thinks he is........

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