This is a discussion on Cirillo On The 9mm... within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Archie: Well said...........................
As far as slicing and dicing - some JHPs have jagged points (when fired into gel), while others open up into a rather smooth mushroom shape.
I don't think that you can compare blunt force trauma to a bullet impact - but any medical folks can feel free to chime in here.
As far as incapacitation due to bleeding - some folks can continue to function for some 20-30 seconds with their heart destroyed. Plenty of time to kill you. Witness an off duty NYPD officer who was shot in the heart and died, but still managed to shoot and wound both armed robbers who attacked him (one was a loser actor for the "Sopranos").
I never said that hits to other than the CNS are useless. Anything that can slow down an attacker is good. BUT - I would not count on anything OTHER than a CNS shot to quickly stop an attack. Witness the thug who was on top of an officer, beating him severely and trying to get the officer's gun...he was shot by a passerby in the head with a .45 (this after 4 hits with .45 and 1 hit with .40 from the officer)...he looked up, rolled on his back, and tried to get back up twice before finally expiring. So - even hits to the head are not a guarantee.
I've asked this question of some medical folks who are in the know, and the reply was a definite maybe...JHPs do help limit the possibility of a shoot-through, but they won't turn a poorly placed shot into a stopping shot.
Personally I like the wisdom that has been attributed to a Navy SEAL..."If I shoot you twice in the chest and once in the head, caliber [and the type of bullet] won't matter."
Now I'll go make some popcorn.
And, for the record, I'm pretty sure the NYPD uses JHPs nowadays anyway.
How do you account for luck?
I'm thinking of the incident involving a state trooper, former marine that went about 6'2" and about 225lbs, grappling with some fat-axx BG that tried to go for the troopers gun. The trooper pushed him off, put five - that's 5, count 'em - rounds from a .357Mag into the BG, who reengaged the trooper in some wrestling, put a .22 under the troopers armpit, fired one round, nicked the troopers aorta, and the trooper died and the fat-axx is still living.
I'm in favor of gun control -- I think every citizen should have control of a gun.
1 Thess. 5:16-18
In my experience, there is a difference internally. No I cant look at a wound or a hole and immediately tell you 9mm vs 40 or 45 etc, but JHP vs FMJ, I will have to say yes. If they did no better or worse in this case, then there would be no real need for a JHP to exist...
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I am just as nice as anyone lets me be and can be just as mean as anyone makes me. - Quoted from Terryger, New member to our forum.
" Nevertheless , Cirillo carried ammunition in which he had more confidence,such as custom- loaded hollowpoint 110 grain Super Vels, traveling at 1,125 fps". From "Tales of the Stakeout Squad" page 40.
"In June 1972, the NYPD began issuing ammunition with the lead semiwadcutter bullet, and the first unit to get it was the Stakeout Unit. The switch was justified on the basis that the flat-nose semiwadcutter was less likely to ricochet, less likely to overpenetrate, and more effective as an antipersonnel round because it made a clean,distinct wound channel and was less likely to veer off if it hit bone. Cirillo considered it a significant improvement". From "Tales of the Stakeout Squad" page 41.
"If your concerned with concealment, your firearm should be reduced in size and bulk but not in power.I would not use anything below a 9mm, and I would consider even a 9mm marginal and would try to use +P or better ammo in it.The Glock 27 in .40 S&W would be my choice.In my own case, if I were still on the NYCPD Stakeout Squad, the mini Glock would be my second gun and the Glock 21 in .45 ACP would be my main weapon. My present favorite carry guns are a Smith & Wesson double-action-only .40 S&W and a Glock 23 in .40 S&W". From "Guns, Bullets and Gunfights page 116.
"When you get into a gunfight, you will wish you had the biggest, heaviest, largest bore handgun you could get your hands on". From "Guns, Bullets and Gunfights" page 116.
All quotes by Jim Cirillo.
And..............I'd say he knew what he was talkin' about.
Sometimes it pays to heed the advice of knowledgable people with experience rather than run on assumption and opinion.
I wonder what he would say about the glock 19 with 15 rounds of 124 grain +p ammo loaded to a velocity of 1300 fps with modern bullet technology?
Modern 9mm is more than adequate.
While I personally would not consider the 9mm, with current load and bullet technology "marginal", personal experience leads me to understand his confidence in Super Vel at that time.
"I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".
Cirillo's gunfights and their ballistics are from that era. While some people might be perfectly happy with their retro tech goodies some of us choose to move on.
Time marches on. We can choose to march with it, or be left behind.
Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis
Guess I just hold the comments of people who have been there done that and not just talk based on opinion..................
Would much rather hear from an expert than someone who thinks he is........