This is a discussion on Cirillo On The 9mm... within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Up until his death in a tragic auto accident Cirillo was always looking for cutting edge technology in the types of bullets that he used ...
Up until his death in a tragic auto accident Cirillo was always looking for cutting edge technology in the types of bullets that he used . He had several bullets he had designed including one of the original "pin grabbers". He was far from closed minded when it came to what worked and what stopped the BG's in the fastest time. He had written that in all his shoot outs he only saw two one shot instant stops. One was with a 110 grain Super Vel and one was with a 12 ga slug. Both were brain shots. He was involved in several shootings where numerous rounds were absorbed by the BG's before hostilities stopped.
"The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper
"Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow.
End the cycle of hatred, donít give them a tomorrow.
Founder of the BDA Pony Club
Henry Ford on cars: You can have it in any color you want, as long as it's black.
Has about as much relevance to my Z3 (not black) as does Jim's comments (as much as I respect the man and what he did) do to modern high performance bullet designs.
Tim O'Brien, Vietnam vet and prize winning author, has said (I'm paraphrasing) that "the soldier cannot tell us anything meaningful about war simply by virtue of having been there." Hell, I've been there, and been in gunfights there (though not nearly as many as Jim), and I don't think I can tell you anything meaningful about much of anything...
A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.
Anyone know the dates of his last gun fight/ autopsy?
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It's like OPFOR said, I have been a few skirmishes, and don't really remember a damn thing except fear and pulling the trigger. Cirillos experience has relevance today, as there are things we can always learn and take from others experience, but we have to remember the differences in the eras of then and now, and keep it in context.
" In his later years, Jim became more appreciative of autoloaders. He owned the various tricked out 1911's of the day and had at least one Devel Custom, the thinking man's version of the ASP, a cut down S&W 39 or 59......... Jim was really partial to that little 9mm. Toward the end of his life, Jim had become a Glock man. He used a Glock 20 with custom, extended 10mm barrel as a deer hunting pistol. His preferred carry guns were the Glock 30 .45 ACP compact and the Glock 27 sub-compact in .40 S&W". page 172 Tales of the Stake Out Squad.
I think we can still benefit today from the expierence's of Jordan, Cooper and Cirillo.
Absolutely agree. The techniques and experience they pioneered have as much relevance today as ever.
There is no question that his tactics are relevant today as are those of Cooper and Jordan. What needs to be kept in perspective is the performance of the cartridges of the day.
When Cirillo was on Stake Out expanding bullets were almost exclusively revolver food. The primary design consideration for pistol bullets was reliable feeding. That meant FMJ bullets or FMJ profile bullets with an itty bitty hollow point that had to be small enough to not hang up on anything on it's way to the chamber. If things were just right they might expand a bit. Look at feed ramps of most modern pistol designs and compare those to what was out there forty years ago. There is a reason you don't see a lot of folks CC'ing P-08 Lugers or P-38 Walthers and it is not just size.
Look at the performance of the Super Vel and his own loads and compare the velocity, expansion, and overall ballistics of the loads he had confidence in. Compare those with the commercial offerings of the mid 1970's. Now compare them with today's factory offerings.
How do Super Vel and his hand loads compare with, Gold Dot, HST, Golden Saber, Star Fire, and Ranger-T?
He was definitely ahead of the curve on bullet performance back in the day. But as pistols have evolved and bullets have evolved those issues are things of the past.
Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis
The Earth is flat, man will never fly, the atomic bomb will set the atmosphere on fire, and the 9mm will not stop anyone.
Three out of four ain't bad!
Retired USAF E-8. Official forum curmudgeon.
Lighten up and enjoy life because:
Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth
Some people shot with a .22 are DRT. That guy in NYC took 22 rounds of 9mm and survived.
This is why caliber-effectiveness discussions are generally non-productive. Google ".38 vs .357" or "9mm vs .45" and settle in with a stiff drink 'cause you'll be reading for a very long time. These arguments have been hashed out repeatedly and starting a new one here is unlikely to produce a startlingly new and original insight.
A firearm makes a great equalizer against another firearm or bladed weapon. Nevertheless, hand-to-hand skills are worth having in your arsenal because if you know what you're doing, you can very much take your opponent and put him down - hard - on the ground.
"It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."