This is a discussion on Cirillo On The 9mm... within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In the last 20 years I have seen all manners of gunshot wounds and I have no concensus on what works and what doesn't, except, ...
In the last 20 years I have seen all manners of gunshot wounds and I have no concensus on what works and what doesn't, except, placement. If you are accurate, you can kill with anything. Last week I repaired a close range .22 to the face. Lots of bone damage, one TMJ replaced by a fragmented bullet, but very alive. I've seen dead .22 to the head, and live 9mm and .38 to the head. I've seen .22 skip off the skull and travel subcutaneously. I've never seen anything nice from .45 acp. 34 9mm wounds, very alive. Close range shotguns are ugly but don't always kill. High powered rifles create tons of collateral damage from the shockwave.
Pick a decent caliber, learn to shoot, stop worrying about the perfect bullet, it doesn't exist. Worry more about the perfect shot.
There's something happening here
What it is ain't exactly clear
There's a man with a gun over there
Telling me I got to beware
NRA Life Member
If a hollowpoint expands, great, if it doesn't expand, you are shooting hardball. IMHO if you're shooting hardball you should shoot the largest caliber you can get ACCURATE hits with.
The good Doctor makes a great point. Shot placement is the most important factor. If you shoot the latest whiz-bang round and miss, the threat isn't stopped and you are still liable for that bullet that missed until it comes to a stop.
"34 9mm wounds, very alive" is a pretty sobering thought. "I've never seen anything nice from .45 acp." reinforces my decision to switch from a 15 shot 9mm to a 13 shot .45 over a decade ago.
All handguns are poor stoppers. However, that is the only thing we are likely to have when TSHTF. It doesn't matter how many rounds you fire, it's the number of good hits that count.
People dismiss Marshal and Sanow for their methods but I've yet to hear people quote their actual conclusion. Shot placement is the key to stopping power.
Courage is endurance for one moment more…
Hollowpoints might expand, but bullets won't shrink.
Anything about his experience in the NYPD would be extremely out of date at this point in time. Over a third of a century has gone by since he left the department.
I just don't see how any discussion about using FMJ ammo for self defense is relevant today, unless we are talking about the US Military.
I shot a cottontail rabbit once with a hot CorBon 9mm JHP load from my Glock 17, and it died instantly, despite being gut shot.
Of course Cirillos experiences are still relevant. The more we learn, the more we should understand how much we don't know. Even the events in Tombstone can be learned from, and that was over 100 years ago.
Several years ago, Gabe Suarez was teaching a class down in Argentina. During the breaks, the students get to talking and it comes out that one of them, an Argentine cop, had been in 47 gunfights. Gabe's initial reaction is, "47? And I'm supposed to be teaching you?" Gabe was in some gunfights when he was a cop in L.A., but nowhere near 47. The Argentine cop assured him that it was a great class so far and he was learning some good stuff.
So, Gabe started inquiring about this cop's experience, to see what we could learn from it. Well, it turns out in about half of these gunfights the Argentine police roll up on an armed robbery in progress, grab their HK G3s, point in at the door and shoot the the BGs when they come out. Not much we can learn from that aside from 'rifles work' and 'it's better to be the ambusher than the ambushed', but I think we already knew that.
The other half of this fellows gunfights were more relevant to what we're likely to experience: reactive gunfights using a pistol at very close ranges. After talking tactics for a bit, Gabe asks him what sort of pistol he used. They started out with the Hi-Power, then switched over to the Glock 17. So Gabe asked him about ammo. The Argentine police didn't really have access to all the high-tech ammo we have here in the U.S., so all of these were with 9mm FMJ. Gabe said, "You know, there's a lot of gun guys up in the U.S. that don't think much of 9mm FMJ." The cop replied, "I shot them a lot in the chest and if that didn't work, I shot them a lot in the face. They all fell down."
"I shot them a lot in the chest and if that didn't work, I shot them a lot in the face. They all fell down."
Nuff said !
"Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".
"A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves".
I don't know of any law enforcement agencies in the USA using FMJ ammo anymore. Does anyone????
If some folks here are still carrying FMJ ammo in their guns, then they are definitely throw backs to an earlier age.
I am a simple man. Since (rightly or wrongly) most of my practice is for IDPA which I shoot with WWB factory ammo in 9mm (a relatively hot commercial load), I keep it simple with 9mm+p (same as NYPD--124gr GDHP), which are a little different, but not so much that it affects me appreciably (I often shoot a mag of the gold dots on the clock to be sure).
Now I'm not saying IDPA is good defensive training, just that most of my trigger time is with the 9, so I figure I should carry what I'm most proficient with.
If I reloaded and had a 1911, I'd shoot CDP and carry .45. If I had a boatload more practice time, I'd shoot SSR and carry a snubby in .38+p.
But I don't.
So 9 it is.
BTW, why on earth are the NYPD limited to the G19? Is the longer sight radius of a 17 too accurate or something? I loves me my 19, but if I were a cop, I'd want at least a 17 if not a 34.
And a big +1 to this:Nevertheless, hand-to-hand skills are worth having in your arsenal because if you know what you're doing, you can very much take your opponent and put him down - hard - on the ground.
Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five RingsYou should not have any special fondness for a particular weapon, or anything else, for that matter
So what really determines if you survive a gun fight: God, mindset and training. Thus, is it just your time, this is regardless if you are the bad guy or not. Second, what is your mindset, are confident because you have the latest gun rag gun and round or are you determined to win because you want to see your loved ones again. Lastly, how much have you trained your body, worked your technique and maintained your weapon.
Finally, some guy is gonna read these posts and say this 9mm really sucks and start carrying say a .45, when he knows he is a tack driver with the 9mm. Possibly find himself in a bad situation with the .45, place some poor shots, and die. Nuff said....
Listen, Think and React.....Nuff Said.....
I think Cirillo would have told you to use what you are given and shoot bad guys in the head or the heart till they fall down.
He was an extremely good marksman and a tactician. He understood gear is a secondary consideration and surprise, movement, cover, initiative and skill were all vastly more important than what bullet you were shooting when it all came down to sending love downrange at 1,000 or more FPS.
But then again...it's easier to acquire cool ammo than it is skill, so feel free to argue about what ammo to use or which gun works better...