Cirillo On The 9mm...

Cirillo On The 9mm...

This is a discussion on Cirillo On The 9mm... within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; "New York City police officers are now carrying full metal jacket 9mm loads in their sidearms. It's a good thing they reversed the 10 shot ...

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Thread: Cirillo On The 9mm...

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
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    Cirillo On The 9mm...

    "New York City police officers are now carrying full metal jacket 9mm loads in their sidearms. It's a good thing they reversed the 10 shot limit in their magazines, because the cops are going to need plenty of ammo to put their man down before all those tiny perforations take effect.".....Cirillo.

    These were the thoughts of a man who was involved in 17 gun fights and racked up multiple kills during his tour in the NYCSO Squad. He witnessed all the autopsies and logged / studied projectile performance. These were obviously his opinions of the 9mm FMJ round.

    Obviously, today there are better bullet choices available to the LE community but does his characterization of the 9mm round as a whole lend creadance to the "undergunned / no stopping power theory" .....?

    As we have seen in recent attacks by BG's on civilians, survival rate appears better falling victim to the 9mm vs. another pistol caliber.......

    What Say You...............?


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    All handgun "stopping power" is marginal at best.

    Regardless of what you're using, the drill is the same - shoot until the threat stops.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
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    VIP Member Array Madcap_Magician's Avatar
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    Say, you know what this thread could really use? A good dose of Glock v. XD v. M&P...

    1. All handgun ammo performs marginally and unpredictably against people.
    2. 9mm ball ammo has a record of being on the worse end of that spectrum.
    3. Modern 9mm ammo has a substantially better record.
    4. Comparison indicates that when using modern ammunition, all the major carry calibers in the range of .38 Special +P to .45 ACP perform roughly the same... probably because most defensive ammo is designed to meet the FBI protocol.

    Therefore... comparing one person's statement regarding 9mm FMJ ammo has no relevance to the performance of modern JHP ammo.
    Not my circus, not my monkeys.

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    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
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    "Therefore... comparing one person's statement regarding 9mm FMJ ammo has no relevance to the performance of modern JHP ammo"


    IMO...........don't necessarilly agree with this statement. I feel it depends on who that person is, qualifications, field experience etc. We all see the Bare Gellatin test examples and say....Hmmmm looks impressive. Alot different than attending an autopsy and seeing first hand what bullet performace has accomplished on the guy you just took out hours earlier......There are no bones and or obsticles in Bare Gellatin tests to impede projectiles. Nothing substitutes for the real thing and whether you like him or not Cirillo was the real deal.

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    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Here we go again...

    1. Didn't he use revolvers? That fired bullets the same diameter as a 9mm?

    2. I'm STILL waiting for someone to show me exactly how it is that handgun-lauched JHPs are so vastly superior to FMJ in stopping a threat.

    3. You either disrupt the CNS or you do not. If you do, caliber and bullet type will not matter one iota. If you do not, then there is a slight advantage to bigger holes, but not enough to matter...if you're waiting for the BG to bleed out, you're probably going to be in for a long wait.

    Whether you're using .32 FMJ or .45 JHPs...shoot until the threat is over.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I don't buy into the handgun caliber being " marginal " for SD, and this is a much over used regurgatated expression. Any handgun caliber capable of putting a hole through the body will shut put your lights out.
    The 9mm in the FMJ loadings is a poor performer as far as solid bullets go, but so is other FMJ calibers. While I respect Cirrilo and his opinion due to his experience, I cannot help but think that some of the famous people of gun fighting lore have an agenda, or at least some bias in their opinions.

    The 9 is just fine with today's ammo selection.

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
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    After reading both his books, it's my opinion that his main concerns were penetration, bullet design vs. performance then caliber. He simply hated the 38 Special 158. Gr. LRN....poor penetration due mainly to projectile design ( Round Nose). I believe his complaint concerning the 9mm wasn't so much the penetration factor but the design factor of the bullet / deflection within the target area and the inability to cause proficient wounding. The lessor FMJ rounds .32, .380 he just thought were a threat to the user in a gun fight.

    His "Stop The Threat Now" mentality didn't lend itself to his confidence in the 9mm round...........

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array jwhite75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I don't buy into the handgun caliber being " marginal " for SD, and this is a much over used regurgatated expression. Any handgun caliber capable of putting a hole through the body will shut put your lights out.
    The 9mm in the FMJ loadings is a poor performer as far as solid bullets go, but so is other FMJ calibers. While I respect Cirrilo and his opinion due to his experience, I cannot help but think that some of the famous people of gun fighting lore have an agenda, or at least some bias in their opinions.

    The 9 is just fine with today's ammo selection.
    I agree wholly with this statement....i have seen scads of dead bodies with .22 and .25 caliber holes in them. Now that being said, scientifically and ballistically, the JHP is overall better because it cause a more damaging wound track though the vital parts of the body, When the HP mushrooms, it has jagged little "petals", that cut and slice, through tissue. The FMJ usually just makes a clean hole or "perforations" like a hole punch in paper. A good JHP SD load like Gold Dot, Golden Saber, Hydra Shok, Ranger will do just fine in the new modern loadings, if the shooter does his job. I have the rare experience of formerly being a forensics investigator in a Medical examiners office, and having a good friend who is a career forensic firearms analyst. Between my actually seeing a bullets path and the resulting damage to tissue first hand, and what he has shown me scientifcially about ballistics and bullet performance, I can state a 9mm will work when used proeperly, as will any other handgun round.

    A 12 ga or centerfire rifle will do even better.
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    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwhite75 View Post
    I agree wholly with this statement....i have seen scads of dead bodies with .22 and .25 caliber holes in them. Now that being said, scientifically and ballistically, the JHP is overall better because it cause a more damaging wound track though the vital parts of the body, When the HP mushrooms, it has jagged little "petals", that cut and slice, through tissue. The FMJ usually just makes a clean hole or "perforations" like a hole punch in paper. A good JHP SD load like Gold Dot, Golden Saber, Hydra Shok, Ranger will do just fine in the new modern loadings, if the shooter does his job. I have the rare experience of formerly being a forensics investigator in a Medical examiners office, and having a good friend who is a career forensic firearms analyst. Between my actually seeing a bullets path and the resulting damage to tissue first hand, and what he has shown me scientifcially about ballistics and bullet performance, I can state a 9mm will work when used proeperly, as will any other handgun round.

    A 12 ga or centerfire rifle will do even better.
    That's interesting, because I've read reports from other medical folks who state they cannot tell from a bullet's path trough tissue whether the bullet was caliber x or y, nor can they tell if it was JHP or FMJ. Are you saying you can see a difference?
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    3. You either disrupt the CNS or you do not. If you do, caliber and bullet type will not matter one iota. If you do not, then there is a slight advantage to bigger holes, but not enough to matter...if you're waiting for the BG to bleed out, you're probably going to be in for a long wait.
    A hollow point bullet expands to nearly twice the diameter. For a 9mm bullet that expands to 0.62", by the circle equation, the cross sectional area of the bullet path is increased from 0.1 inches squared to 0.3 inches squared; that is 3 times the area. The volume of disrupted tissue in the roughly cylindrical wound cavity is also tripled.

    The probability of disrupting the CNS is, therefore, tripled...as is the number of non-central nerves that will be sending pain signals to the brain, as well as the probability of disrupting any other major organs.

    Because the bullet has a larger cross sectional area it stops faster and delivers a much larger impulse force. Whether or not you believe in hydrostatic shock, there is no doubt that a greater amount of force is going to deliver more "shock" to the body. If you are not aware, simply providing a shock nearby to the heart can easily disrupt the beating cycle and result in death. My heart has been stopped resulting in complete unconsciousness (effective within 5 seconds) and temporary death on two occasions, in both cases due to a seemingly modest punch to the chest over my heart with probably less force than would be delivered by a bullet impact.

    Not only does the overall diameter of a hollow point bullet increase, but the shape of it generally changes from a smooth rounded surface to a spiky jagged surface. Each one of these jagged bullet "blades" will deliver a greater amount of force to a smaller area allowing it to more effectively slice through meat rather than just perforating a small hole and squeezing through. I don't know about you, but if an object is going to be passing through my body, I would prefer it to be a smooth round small object rather than a large spiky ball of hell.

    Bleeding to death is too slow, but "death" is not synonymous with incapacitation. Incapacitation means threat neutralized. It does not take long for blood flow to be reduced from the brain causing one to feel faint and pass out. For a lot of people, simply seeing the sight of blood will induce this effect. Part of it is emotional. The larger the hole, the more shocking it is to the person, the more nerve signals are firing, the more organs that are damaged...the faster this effect is going to take hold of a person and cause them to start to drift out of consciousness.

    Can you count on this to work for every single person in the whole wide world? Probably not. There are always super human stories out there. But to say that anything that does not hit the CNS is a useless shot is downright ridiculous. I could blow both your legs clean off your body with a cannot without affecting your CNS, and you know, I would consider that a threat neutralized even if you didn't instantly drop dead.

    My personal feeling, for the reasons described above, is that JHP bullets are a huge step up from FMJ.
    "In a world of compromise, some don't." -HK

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    This is going to be a good one to watch. I guess I will see all the 9mm guys come out and cry a bit.
    Have Fun and Shoot Straight !!

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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    This is one of those threads. Bottom line is if you don't feel comfortable with a nine, carry something out. Ballistics are often complicated for the novice. The greenhorn must rely on writings in gun rags and other literature until he gains enough experience to know for himself. I would think asking a question on a forum where you have 100 different opnions would complicate things more. Especially on a topic like this where there are so many variables. The bottom line is if you are stuck with round nosed solid bullets, bigger is better, but only to a point.

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    Death is not the sole criteria for handgun effectiveness

    I have never been a fan of the 9x19 handgun round for self-defense. Historically, it has been known as a highly mediocre round in that capacity; largely due to the use of FMJ bullets.

    The goal of deadly physical force is to immediately stop the subject in question from pursuing whatever course of action - in this case trying to cause my death or great bodily injury - from completing the course of action. That 'stop' must be 'immediate'.

    If the person in question is trying to carve my face from my head with a broken beer bottle, I shoot him and he then proceeds to remove my face - which I admit is not the prettiest, but one I've had for some long time and to which I have grown quite attached - and then he dies from the gunshot wound, I didn't win and the round used was not effective.

    On the other hand, if when I shoot him in those circumstances and he falls to the ground, I did win and the round is effective. It is effective even though the only treatment the malefactor requires is a band aid and aspirin and he survives to tell his story of parental neglect and abuse.

    With all respect to medical examiners, the subjects upon which they work are dead. Death is not a criteria important to me, as I mentioned. The question is how quickly did the subject become unable to continue the attack. One must question deaths caused by .22 or .25 caliber weapons; was death immediate or at some later date? My understanding the majority of deaths caused by .22 caliber weapons stem from either long term blood loss or infection. An attacker dying from infection will be a threat for a considerable period of time.

    The key factor is always shot placement. One must disrupt the basic motion and volitional actions of the attacker. This is best done by a disruption of the central nervous system (CNS); alternatively, extreme pain can also deter an attack, but cannot be relied upon in such matter. Some folks just handle pain better and those under certain pharmaceutical products remarkably so.

    FMJ bullets not hitting a CNS site rely on blood loss to disable an attacker. This applies to all FMJ rounds lacking the kinetic energy to cause a whole body hydrostatic shock effect, which effectively is all handgun rounds commonly used for self defense. (One could argue a .500 S&W or similar round is capable of shock, but isn't a normal self defense round.) Blood loss time varies, but is usually long enough to require either more hits or alternative measures such as avoiding the attacker until he bleeds out enough to collapse.

    For that reason, higher caliber rounds in FMJ are superior as the larger wound channel encourages bleeding more than a smaller caliber round. Which, for the record, is still not my first choice.

    In the same regard, a full wadcutter or semi-wadcutter bullet - jacketed or lead alloy - does a much better job of encouraging blood loss than a round nosed solid bullet - jacketed or lead alloy. My first choice is a large caliber semi-wadcutter profile.

    In a self defense role - which includes both law enforcement and private citizen use - additional rounds create a greater danger to persons and property other than the attacker. Missed shots and 'through and through' hits damaging other persons or property - someone's car or window or dog - will have to be addressed at some point. So the fewer shots fired is the screamingly obvious better plan.

    In the great majority of shootings which I have been able to study, the commonest reason for 'failure to stop' an attacker is poor shooting. Misses or peripheral hits - arms, legs or non-crucial soft tissue - simply do not incapacitate an attacker. However, training budgets being what they are, most law enforcement agencies do not provide the level of training to universally correct this problem. (As an aside, this may explain why non-LEO 'hobbyists' are generally better shooters than LEOs who are not particularly interested in shooting.)

    Mr. Cirillo's comments were directed at the use of FMJ 9x19 ammunition. I had the privilege of meeting the late Jim Cirillo in 1988. While friendly, smiling and affable, he was rather serious about keeping officers alive. His experience gave him great insight into the use of various calibers upon hostile targets. Any comments he made about specifics should be noted and included in any determination of effectiveness.

    I also think the required use of FMJ ammunition by the NYPD is based on reasons other than maximum effectiveness. Personally, I feel it shows a lack of concern for NYPD officers and the public at large.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXxplosive View Post
    Obviously, today there are better bullet choices available to the LE community but does his characterization of the 9mm round as a whole lend creadance to the "undergunned / no stopping power theory" .....?
    If you want to restrict yourself to projectile designs from over a hundred years ago sure! Just as his characterization of the .45 ACP lends credence to anyone saying you are undergunned with that round.
    Had Bill used a standard .45 bullet, I probably would not be writing this … .”
    Jim Cirillo's experiences on the NYPD date back to the 1970's and reflect the state of the technology at that time. The human body has not changed significantly in the last forty years but bullet designs, metallurgy, and powders have. Medicine has advanced significantly in that time also.

    If someone wants to base their life choices on valid data dating back to the Nixon, Ford and Carter administrations that is fine by me. However I myself prefer to enjoy the benefits of modern technology.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXxplosive View Post
    What Say You...............?
    For me, an experienced opinion is of far more value than an inexperienced one, I think Jim Cirillo was certainly more experienced than most.
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