Printable View
I have a question. A long time ago I read some where. That hollow point pistol ammo was developed to stop overpenetration. (stay in the target)
So that when a LEO shot someone (big city's mostly) the bullet went into that person and stopped. Instead of going through the person and possibly hitting someone else.(very old reference)
Does anyone know where I can find that article,paper or reference???
Thank you.
There's some history on them here:
Also some insight into "Dum Dum" bullets and their name.
Hollow-point bullet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The reason for hollow points is that they are more effective than round nose bullets.
Over penetration is a silly concern. People worry about a good shot overpenetrating and don't worry about all the misses that by wizzing by at full velocity.
Dr. Gary Roberts says this, and i agree with him:
Quote:
Failures to stop a suspect because of under-penetration, poor bullet placement, and completely missing the target are far more significant problems than over-penetration. With shots to the center of mass, if a handgun or rifle bullet fails to have enough penetration to reach the large blood bearing vessels and organs in the torso, rapid physiological incapacitation is unlikely and an opponent may remain a lethal threat to officers and citizen bystanders. Conversely, if a bullet fired by officers completely penetrates a violent criminal and exits downrange, the bullet will certainly have had enough penetration to reach the large blood bearing vessels or organs in the torso. As a result, it is more likely to have caused sufficient hemorrhage to induce hypovolemic shock--the only reliable method of physiological incapacitation in the absence of CNS trauma.
Unfortunately, according to the available published date, the majority of shots fired in the field by U.S. LE officers miss their intended target. According to published NYPD SOP-9 data, the NYPD hit ratio by officers against perpetrators in 2000 was 12.3% of shots fired and in 2001 13.5% of shots fired. The Miami Metro-Dade County PD had hit ratios ranging between 15.4% and 30% from 1988-1994. Portland PD reported hits with 43% of shots fired at adversaries from 1984-1992, while Baltimore PD reported a 49% average hit ratio from 1989-2002.
Given that the reported averages for LE officers actually hitting the suspect ranges between 12% to 49% of shots fired, more concern should be given to the between 51-88% of shots fired by LE officers which completely MISS the intended target and immediately result in a significant threat to any person down range, rather than excessively worry about the relatively rare instance where one of the 12%-49% of shots fired actually hits the intended target and then exits the perpetrator in a fashion which still poses a hazard.
In short, the consequences of projectile under-penetration are far more likely to get officers and citizens killed than over-penetration issues.
I'm failing to see the logic behind that article. If the cops are missing 51-88% of their shots, then the last thing they would need is an overpenatrating FMJ that will penetrate that many more objects after they miss their intended target. Not to mention, JHP rounds offer significantly greater stopping power because of bullet expansion. I'm pretty new in the forums, but I have already read numerous posts and articles about this issue. Think of it this way... How many car doors will a JHP round fly through vs how many doors a FMJ or other round nose bullet travel through? Factor walls into this equation as well - Brick, wood, sheet rock, ect. This is just my opinion. If anyone has some hard facts, feel free to lead me in a different direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by ken45
Actually a JHP will act like a FMJ when fired into a car door, etc. For instance a 230 gr .45acp round will penetrate 14" to 15" in ballistic gel. The same round when fired through sheet metal before entering ballistic gel will penetrate 23". Hydorstatic shock is what causes JHP's to expand. There is no hydrostatic shock associated with car doors. Watch the video here to see what will happen. The car door demo is near the end: LE - Wound Ballistic VideosQuote:
Originally Posted by Lotus222
I wonder if insurgents # 2 & 3 would agree that overpenetration is silly?Quote:
Originally Posted by ken45
U.S. Marine Corps Staff Sergeant Steve Reichert - Killed 3 Iraqi insurgents hiding behind a brick wall with a single shot from 1 mile in Lutayfiyah, Iraq on April 9, 2004.
We are talking handguns here. I would assume Sgt. Reichert was NOT using a handgun. Am I right?Quote:
Originally Posted by crabbys44
Ken
In Massad Ayoob - Shoot To Live - Gunfight Survival he talks about the need for hollow points. I would suggest that you pick it up, very good info. Dont be on the side of over penetration is silly. It could cost you if you ever have a SD shooting. Be safe.
Interesting. I was assuming the round would hit more than just sheet metal, but yeah. Looks like several car doors wouldn't stop a JHP, either. I guess I should have said if the police actually hit their targets, then they wouldn't have to worry about the overpenetration of a FMJ if they used JHP's. Also, the stopping power is key, but I wouldn't overlook overpenetration, either.Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalexplr
On a side note, I was laughing so hard when I was watching Inception last night. It was my first time seeing the movie, and there were about 6 guys in a car taking on a hailstorm of bullets - continuously for... well, a bunch of minutes. I won't give any spoilers for those who haven't seen it, but apparently their van could take bullets like a freaking tank. Hollywood cracks me up. Entertaining movie, though. It has some pretty awesome special effects.
The point of this post was to get people to look up the introduction of hollow point ammo.
So that if you are ever in a court room. You or your lawyer can show that the HP was designed as a safety mesure. Not as the evil killer bullet, that all the gun rags and media have made them out to be.
As for overpenetration being a silly concern??? That is why LEO's made the switch from round nose to HP many years ago.
That sniper was using a Raufoss Mk 211 12.7x99mm (.50 cal) round which is a very nasty piece of ammunition. It pretty much turned into a liquid tungsten filled grenade on the other side of the wall...hardly comparable to a pistol FMJ.Quote:
Originally Posted by ken45
If it's any consolation, a cinder block face forward will stop a 9mm FMJ, a .40 S&W JHP, and a .357 Magnum JSP after going through one side (the 9mm FMJ couldn't even penetrate the first side in my impromptu range test). If you hit it on the reinforced section in the middle you'll just make a dent.
Do you know of a handgun that can do that at any distance?Quote:
Originally Posted by ken45
sarcasm off
Hollowpoint vs. Full Metal Jacket
Has a test in gelatin,.
And here is a pretty good explaination describing it here;The Truth About Hollow Point Bullets | LearnAboutGuns.com*
I carry hollow points due to their increased effectivness. IMO, you have a better chance of hitting an innocent by simply missing the BG in the first place.
That and reduce ricochet is pretty much why they originally gained popularity with a lot of PD's. Guantes link pretty much covers the basics. Of course since than the primary focus has been on controlled expansion to create the most effective wound cavity.Quote:
Originally Posted by NDN-MAN