Talk me into a .357 SIG

This is a discussion on Talk me into a .357 SIG within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; IMHO, .40 Why have to fool with two barrels, use that money for ammo. You fly somewhere to hunt and want to take it - ...

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Thread: Talk me into a .357 SIG

  1. #31
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    IMHO, .40 Why have to fool with two barrels, use that money for ammo. You fly somewhere to hunt and want to take it - can't find ammo when you get there. .40 is a darn good round with out all that hassle and expense.
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  3. #32
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texag View Post
    I am well aware that .357 sig has more recoil and muzzle blast. The problem is that those traits, along with the increased cost of ammo and reduced capacity, don't translate into improved terminal ballistics. You can talk about the subjective difference in feel between 9mm and .357 sig all you want, the actual data doesn't show signs of improved terminal performance.
    Tell us truthfully, how many rounds of 357Sig have you actually fired? There is something to be said about recoil being a factor in power levels in handguns. Not felt recoil but actual recoil. Think of it this way. A .357mag J-frame S&W has much more recoil than the same gun shooting .38's. Does the 357 have more power? I think so.

    You can talk about your charts all you want. I'll take my actual results anytime. You can argue capacity and I'll give you that, but until you can show me any other reason to choose 9mm over 357Sig we'll just have to disagree.

    P.S. Look at your post count.

  4. #33
    Senior Member Array Texag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    Tell us truthfully, how many rounds of 357Sig have you actually fired? There is something to be said about recoil being a factor in power levels in handguns. Not felt recoil but actual recoil. Think of it this way. A .357mag J-frame S&W has much more recoil than the same gun shooting .38's. Does the 357 have more power? I think so.

    You can talk about your charts all you want. I'll take my actual results anytime. You can argue capacity and I'll give you that, but until you can show me any other reason to choose 9mm over 357Sig we'll just have to disagree.

    P.S. Look at your post count.
    I've only fired a mag of .357 through my friend's 229. He I've fired the same gun in .40 and he has another 229 in 9mm that I've shot. There was significantly more muzzle flip with the .357 sig and .40 when compared to 9mm.

    I'm curious about the actual results you're talking about. The charts I posted contain data from tests conducted according to FBI standards. This removes all variables but the actual round used. That definitely falls under my definition of actual results.

    I will again reference Dr. Roberts, as he has access to more data from testing and actual shootings than just about anyone around.

    Originally posted by DocGKR:
    There are 357Sig "failures" just like with any other duty handgun caliber. They are all just service pistols--not rifles or magic incapacitating phasers. If you like .357 Sig, feel free to use it. Personally, I have no need for 357 Sig or 45GAP, but if I got issued 357 Sig ammo, I wouldn't have any issues carrying it, as it works just as well as the 9 mm I am currently using. If I have to purchase my own ammo, then 9 mm or .40 S&W makes more sense.

    As I have written previously:

    "I am grateful that the 357 Sig issuing agencies are satisfied with their weapon system performance. By the same token, every single agency that I am aware of that has acquired reliable pistols, diligently emphasizes frequent realistic lethal force training and tactics, and uses good quality service pistol ammunition in 9 mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP are also very happy with their shooting results. Good Training and Proper Psychological Preparedness coupled with Reliable Weapon Systems and followed by Frequent Practice is what will win the battles.

    Is the 357 Sig bad? NO! It is a very reliably performing 9mm bullet, but it is does not offer significantly better terminal performance compared with the best current 9mm ammunition. When firing through heavy clothing, automotive steel panels, automobile windshield glass, interior wall segments, exterior wall segments, and plywood, both the 357 Sig Speer 125 gr JHP Gold Dot and 9mm Speer 124 gr +P JHP Gold Dot exhibited nearly identical penetration and expansion results THROUGH ALL THE DIFFERENT BARRIERS, as demonstrated by both our testing and that of the FBI. Most 357 Sig loadings, unless the fail to expand, do not offer excessive penetration; in fact, the exact opposite, under-penetration, can be a problem. Several .40 S&W and .45 ACP loads offered superior terminal performance through barriers compared to the 9mm and 357 Sig loads. In addition to having tested virtually all the handgun ammo available in lab settings, we have also had the opportunity to analyze numerous OIS incident forensic results and have not observed any greater incapacitation in actual shootings with users of 357 Sig loads compared to those users of 9 mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP who are using equivalent modern, well engineered ammunition.

    The 357 Sig is not a bad cartridge, it just does not seem to offer anything that is not already available, at the price of less ammunition capacity than the similarly performing 9mm, as well as having greater recoil, muzzle flash, and wear on the weapon compared to other service pistol cartridges. On the other hand, since the 357 Sig is a modern cartridge benefiting from the latest engineering concepts, the bullets loaded with it have generally all been designed and tested using the latest FBI, IWBA, etc... testing protocols. This results in more robust terminal performance, less failures to expand, and thus greater tissue damage than will be found with older projectile designs. In addition, since according to data from Fackler and others, approximately 50% of shooting victims are incapacitated by psychological mechanisms, it is possible that the increased blast, flash, and noise of the 357 Sig enhances psychological perceptions of being shot.

    In discussing this issue with an experienced ammunition engineer at one of the major ammo companies, he stated that he didn't particularly like the 357 Sig from an engineering perspective and described their difficulties in designing and producing 357 Sig ammunition which consistently performs as well as their ammunition in other service calibers. In particular, he felt his company's 357 Sig loads offered no better performance than their top 9 mm loads and stated their .40 S&W loads were superior in every respect to their 357 Sig ammunition. He firmly believes their .40 S&W offerings are the best performing duty ammunition his company produces.

    We have found .40 S&W 180 gr to perform very well against barriers--better than the 9 mm and 357 Sig. The CHP used a variety of .357 Mag loads, depending upon what was available via the state contract. According to the published CHP test data, the .357 Magnum load used immediately prior to the CHP transition to .40 S&W was the Remington 125 gr JHP with an ave. MV of 1450 f/s from their duty revolvers--CHP has continued to report greater success with their .40 S&W 180 gr JHP than with the .357 Magnum 125 gr JHP they previously issued.

    For many agencies, adoption of a new weapon system frequently necessitates more intensive training and instruction than might typically occur, thus officer's shooting skills might be at a higher peak than normal and qualification scores and hopefully officer involved shooting hits might increase. Having confidence in your handgun is a GREAT reason to choose a particular caliber and weapon system; if a 357 Sig works for you, go for it. Neither myself nor any of my colleagues choose to carry 357 Sig--quite a few of us carry 9 mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. However, if I was at an agency that gave me unlimited 357 Sig ammo, then I would happily carry it! The bottom line is that all of the common service pistol calibers have loads that work--pick something that is reliable and works well for you, then practice......................a lot."
    I noticed my last post was #357. Odd considering its contents.
    I collect ammo, not guns.

  5. #34
    Distinguished Member Array LanceORYGUN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texag View Post
    "Unlike rifle bullets, handgun bullets, regardless of whether they are fired from pistols or SMG’s, generally only disrupt tissue by the crush mechanism. In addition, temporary cavitation from most handgun bullets does not reliably damage tissue and is not usually a significant mechanism of wounding."

    Excerpt from this article by Dr. Roberts.
    I know that there are some folks that worship the ground that Dr. Roberts walks on, but I am not certainly one of them. I think that he is totally off base in so totally discounting temporary cavity damage caused by higher velocity bullets. There are many others that disagree with him.

    So please don't quote Dr. Roberts to me again, because I am not at all a believer in his theories.

    .

  6. #35
    Senior Member Array Texag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanceORYGUN View Post
    I know that there are some folks that worship the ground that Dr. Roberts walks on, but I am not certainly one of them. I think that he is totally off base in so totally discounting temporary cavity damage caused by higher velocity bullets. There are many others that disagree with him.

    So please don't quote Dr. Roberts to me again, because I am not at all a believer in his theories.

    .
    He doesn't discount temporary stretch cavity, he simply states that it doesn't usually cause meaningful damage at velocities under ~2000 fps.

    I will quote him whenever I feel it is applicable to the topic at hand. You are more than welcome to disregard it, others may find it helpful.
    I collect ammo, not guns.

  7. #36
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texag View Post
    He doesn't discount temporary stretch cavity, he simply states that it doesn't usually cause meaningful damage at velocities under ~2000 fps.

    I will quote him whenever I feel it is applicable to the topic at hand. You are more than welcome to disregard it, others may find it helpful.
    Just out of curiosity, since you seem to have a vendetta against 357Sig. How do you feel about 10mm,38 super, and 9x23 calibers? Too much bang for the buck?

  8. #37
    Senior Member Array Texag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    Just out of curiosity, since you seem to have a vendetta against 357Sig. How do you feel about 10mm,38 super, and 9x23 calibers? Too much bang for the buck?
    I don't have a vendetta against .357 sig. I just think the disadvantages outweigh the advantages for me.

    .38 super and 9x23 certainly have better external ballistics than 9mm. As I understand it they are roughly the same as .357 sig and .357 magnum, respectively. I can't comment on their terminal ballistics because I haven't seen any testing done with modern JHPs. 10mm allows one to really take advantage of the penetration advantages of the .40 cal 180 and 200 gr bullets. I don't see much advantage to it when dealing with a human threat, but I think the enhanced penetration could certainly be useful for handgun hunting or protection from bears.

    All 3 are hampered by the lack of readily available, inexpensive practice ammo. I would also like to see how 9mm bullets available to reloaders deal with the increased velocity of 38 super and 9x23. I have a feeling they wouldn't perform as hoped due to the bullets not being designed with those rounds in mind.
    I collect ammo, not guns.

  9. #38
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Velocity, balanced with the right bullet weight and construction, is the key to proper performance. If Dr Roberts says anything under 2000 fps is not doing an appriciable amount more damage, then let's break out the 9x25 Dillion at 2100 fps.

    I think Roberts is full of gas, and would like to take him to Africa with me and deflate him a little bit. Big slow movers will knock the hell out of you.

    Of course the 357 sig has more wallop to it than the 9mm, I do not see how anyone could argue the contrary.

    In my opnion, and for my uses, the 9mm has enough mojo to get it done, and has available cheaper ammo, which is a big plus.

    So stay with the 9mm, unless you just want to carry around " puff the magic dragon". And, if that's the case, bypass the 357 sig, and get the 10mm. It makes everything else look like cap guns.
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  10. #39
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    I have a .40 S&W P229 with a 357 SIG barrel. Although the 357 SIG is a lot of fun to shoot and actually groups better for me than the .40 when using the same brand of ammo, it is much louder, flashes more and muzzle-flip is noticeably higher. Couple that with the higher ammo cost and I end up with a 357 SIG barrel that sees little use. That being said, I really do enjoy shooting it and it leaves me with little doubt that whatever gets hit with it is having a very bad day. At the end of the day though, I keep the pistol loaded with the .40 at night, because I don't want to be blinded and deafened after the first shot in the middle of the night if someone breaks in and forces me to use it.

  11. #40
    Senior Member Array Texag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Velocity, balanced with the right bullet weight and construction, is the key to proper performance. If Dr Roberts says anything under 2000 fps is not doing an appriciable amount more damage, then let's break out the 9x25 Dillion at 2100 fps.
    You have misread what I quoted. Projectiles traveling under ~2000 fps rely on permanent crush cavity to do their damage, as their velocity is too low to actually tear elastic tissue affected by the temporary stretch cavity. Even if velocity is under the threshold that causes tissue to stretch to the point it tears, you can still cause more damage by increasing the permanent crush cavity. The whole point of my argument in this thread is that actual, repeatable testing data done with modern defensive loads shows that there is no practical difference between the permanent crush cavity of .357 sig and 9mm.

    I think Roberts is full of gas, and would like to take him to Africa with me and deflate him a little bit. Big slow movers will knock the hell out of you.
    No one said they wouldn't, but we're talking pistol rounds, not .458 win mag or .45-70.

    Of course the 357 sig has more wallop to it than the 9mm, I do not see how anyone could argue the contrary.
    In the case of .357 sig, increased velocity doesn't translate to improved terminal performance when compared to modern 9mm loadings. I have posted actual data to back up what I have said. So far, it seems like I'm the only one who has done that.

    In my opnion, and for my uses, the 9mm has enough mojo to get it done, and has available cheaper ammo, which is a big plus.
    ...and less recoil, muzzle blast, and higher capacity with the SAME performance once it hits the target.

    So stay with the 9mm, unless you just want to carry around " puff the magic dragon". And, if that's the case, bypass the 357 sig, and get the 10mm. It makes everything else look like cap guns.
    I have yet to find and modern, verifiable testing of 10mm loads. The closest I came was a test done by Double Tap that didn't have any calibration info for the gel.
    I collect ammo, not guns.

  12. #41
    Distinguished Member Array Dragman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Velocity, balanced with the right bullet weight and construction, is the key to proper performance. If Dr Roberts says anything under 2000 fps is not doing an appriciable amount more damage, then let's break out the 9x25 Dillion at 2100 fps.

    I think Roberts is full of gas, and would like to take him to Africa with me and deflate him a little bit. Big slow movers will knock the hell out of you.

    Of course the 357 sig has more wallop to it than the 9mm, I do not see how anyone could argue the contrary.

    In my opnion, and for my uses, the 9mm has enough mojo to get it done, and has available cheaper ammo, which is a big plus.

    So stay with the 9mm, unless you just want to carry around " puff the magic dragon". And, if that's the case, bypass the 357 sig, and get the 10mm. It makes everything else look like cap guns.
    Although I have a 10mm already I see a Glock 20SF in my future with a 9X25Dillon conversion barrel. For all those guys n gals that haven't tested or shot the 10mm you are 100% correct it is the bad boy the others wish they were, just takes time to get used to it and learn to control it.
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  13. #42
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    I'm going to shoot a few different guns in .357 SIG tonight. Im going to try to shoot the same guns in 9mm and compare the two. I will not carry a .40 and it is simply personal preference I know many of you are sold on it, but I have always preferred 9mm or 45 ACP. Ammo availability is somewhat of a concern but not a huge one because I usually buy a thousand rounds when I buy a new gun so as long as one place in my area has some will be alright.
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  14. #43
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    Texag, I didn't misread it, just looking at it from a different angle.
    As for verifiable 10mm tests, go out and kill a few things with it and other calibers and compare the results. Flesh, muscle, bone and guts tell you a lot more than jello. Then you will have all the verification you need. Ya got a hog problem in Texas don't ya? Get out there and help the effort.

    Oh, and I could use about 40 pounds of pork, in case you have too much :)

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  16. #45
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Velocity, balanced with the right bullet weight and construction, is the key to proper performance. If Dr Roberts says anything under 2000 fps is not doing an appriciable amount more damage, then let's break out the 9x25 Dillion at 2100 fps.

    I think Roberts is full of gas, and would like to take him to Africa with me and deflate him a little bit. Big slow movers will knock the hell out of you.

    Of course the 357 sig has more wallop to it than the 9mm, I do not see how anyone could argue the contrary.

    In my opnion, and for my uses, the 9mm has enough mojo to get it done, and has available cheaper ammo, which is a big plus.

    So stay with the 9mm, unless you just want to carry around " puff the magic dragon". And, if that's the case, bypass the 357 sig, and get the 10mm. It makes everything else look like cap guns.
    +1. If I could get the platform I like in 10mm I would go with it.

    There must be some mighty dangerous jello in Texas. That's all the Texas boy wants to talk about shooting. I prefer to take care of critters and nusisances, and for this 357 Sig lays waste to 9mm. But I guess that doesn't count since I don't have Dr. in front of my name or post long winded B.S. on the interweb.

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