Talk me into a .357 SIG

[justherenow]

I have really wanted a .357sig, they had one at the gun shop when I hot my g19. For me was the deciding factor was the cost of ammo. If I cannot afford to practice with a firearm and keep ammo on hand, its worthless to me. I had a .45acp and could not shoot often as I wanted.

Point is to factor ammo cost into it.

As for the caliber argument, no doubt .357sig is a hot round but confident a 9mm can do the job on a human target if needed.

Sent from my EVO via Tapatalk pro.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[Texag]

Texag, I didn't misread it, just looking at it from a different angle.
As for verifiable 10mm tests, go out and kill a few things with it and other calibers and compare the results. Flesh, muscle, bone and guts tell you a lot more than jello. Then you will have all the verification you need. Ya got a hog problem in Texas don't ya? Get out there and help the effort.

Oh, and I could use about 40 pounds of pork, in case you have too much :)

It's pretty cut and dried, there aren't really angles to it.

I'll get right on buying glocks in every major caliber, then buying several types of JHP, then shooting hogs with all possible combos. I will do this with the money, time, and land I don't have. After I conduct my study, I will have piles of data. It won't be helpful or anything, it'll just be a poorly done rehash of the invalidated Marshall and Sanow studies.

Or I could just use data that comes from standard testing that eliminates variables and has been verified as an accurate tool simulating human tissue through comparisons to reconstructions of shootings, autopsies, and animal testing.

+1. If I could get the platform I like in 10mm I would go with it.

There must be some mighty dangerous jello in Texas. That's all the Texas boy wants to talk about shooting. I prefer to take care of critters and nusisances, and for this 357 Sig lays waste to 9mm. But I guess that doesn't count since I don't have Dr. in front of my name or post long winded B.S. on the interweb.

Actually it doesn't count because you post childish insults instead of anything that resembles a shred of evidence.

[21bubba]

It's pretty cut and dried, there aren't really angles to it.

I'll get right on buying glocks in every major caliber, then buying several types of JHP, then shooting hogs with all possible combos. I will do this with the money, time, and land I don't have. After I conduct my study, I will have piles of data. It won't be helpful or anything, it'll just be a poorly done rehash of the invalidated Marshall and Sanow studies.

Or I could just use data that comes from standard testing that eliminates variables and has been verified as an accurate tool simulating human tissue through comparisons to reconstructions of shootings, autopsies, and animal testing.



Actually it doesn't count because you post childish insults instead of anything that resembles a shred of evidence.

Just trying to inject some humor, since having the almighty Dr's opinion questioned seems to have gotten you mighty riled.

[glockman10mm]

Texag, there are variables that the jello doesnt account for. Im not tryin to knock you for looking at jello tests, they are a good source of information telling us what a bulet will do in under controlled conditions. I have spoken of this many times here, and I know some people are tired of it, but ******, its the truth.

There are variables that will be encountered in real tissue. Bone, a hard, porus material, full of fluid, and somewhat pliable, will screw up a good hollowpoint right now. As a matter of fact, it can act very similar to a ballistic bullet stopping material. Even smaller bones can do this.

A cartridge with more power and velocity helps when these things are encountered. Combine a few small bones and dense muscle mass, and you would be suprised what a bullet has to overcome.

Medium light calibers benefit greatly from the extra boost in power. Sectional density always favors the smaller caliber, but it lacks weight and mass, so the velocity is the answer.
The 357 sig has an advantage over the 9mm, in any comparable loading. Is the gain significant to make up for the price? It depends on the shooter and what he wants.
But , any advantage cannot be ruled out.

[Colin]

I have a Sig 229 in .40cal with extra 357sig and 9mm barrels. As mentioned the 229 in .40cal will feed all 3 calibres with the same mag. If you can get the factory sig barrel, then do so. As the 229 factory barrels are prohibited up here (to short) we must use aftermarket barrels, which generally means match chambers, which generally means picky about ammo. I am having issues with my Lone wolf 357sig barrel not feeding JHP well, edge of the cavities catch on the bottom of the feedramp (both Berry's and XTP and with various OAL's). i doubt this would be an issue with the factory barrel.

The round is great to shoot and I find more accurate than .40cal. If you can find a good source of brass the round is only slightly more expensive to reload than 9mm. Note that it needs the proper bullets as normal 9mm 124grs will crimp on the shoulder with the OAL that will fit into the mag, causing setback issues. I am currently using 6.2 grs of Unique behind XTP's and Berry's 124grs (check your own load data before using) When I am not having feed issues I love the round. It does have the same flaw as the .45acp and that is your desire to retrieve every last casing causes premature wear of the knees..

[Bigpoppa48]

Texag, there are variables that the jello doesnt account for. Im not tryin to knock you for looking at jello tests, they are a good source of information telling us what a bulet will do in under controlled conditions. I have spoken of this many times here, and I know some people are tired of it, but ******, its the truth.

There are variables that will be encountered in real tissue. Bone, a hard, porus material, full of fluid, and somewhat pliable, will screw up a good hollowpoint right now. As a matter of fact, it can act very similar to a ballistic bullet stopping material. Even smaller bones can do this.

A cartridge with more power and velocity helps when these things are encountered. Combine a few small bones and dense muscle mass, and you would be suprised what a bullet has to overcome.

Medium light calibers benefit greatly from the extra boost in power. Sectional density always favors the smaller caliber, but it lacks weight and mass, so the velocity is the answer.
The 357 sig has an advantage over the 9mm, in any comparable loading. Is the gain significant to make up for the price? It depends on the shooter and what he wants.
But , any advantage cannot be ruled out.

What he said

[Devone6]

It's pretty cut and dried, there aren't really angles to it.

Agreed. Fact is, you can go to Remington, Speer, Federal, Hornady, or any other major ammunition maker and the 357Sig has about 35% more muzzle energy than a 9mm, and about 25% more muzzle energy than a 9mm+p. Cut and dried, but I'm not posting tables and charts, because each manufacturer aready has and then it is just simple math, no angles to it.

As for the +p+, which SAAMI does not use/recognize, and some pistol manuals actually state something along the lines of "+p and +p+ accelerates wear and can reduce service life of the gun" (I have two different ones which address that), why push your gun to it's limit, or past it, just to get to where the 357Sig standard load starts?

You seem to be trying awful hard to convince everyone else posting in this thread the 9mm is comparable on an equal level to the 357Sig, but it is clearly not.

Hey, nothing wrong with the 9mm, I have a Sig P6 9mm that is great shooting gun, and I will/do carry with it with no reservations, but it is no 357Sig.

no doubt .357sig is a hot round but confident a 9mm can do the job on a human target if needed

Yeah, I agree and that pretty well sums it up justherenow, but like posted earlier, every little advantage helps.

[Texag]

Agreed. Fact is, you can go to Remington, Speer, Federal, Hornady, or any other major ammunition maker and the 357Sig has about 35% more muzzle energy than a 9mm, and about 25% more muzzle energy than a 9mm+p. Cut and dried, but I'm not posting tables and charts, because each manufacturer aready has and then it is just simple math, no angles to it.

As for the +p+, which SAAMI does not use/recognize, and some pistol manuals actually state something along the lines of "+p and +p+ accelerates wear and can reduce service life of the gun" (I have two different ones which address that), why push your gun to it's limit, or past it, just to get to where the 357Sig standard load starts?

You seem to be trying awful hard to convince everyone else posting in this thread the 9mm is comparable on an equal level to the 357Sig, but it is clearly not.

Hey, nothing wrong with the 9mm, I have a Sig P6 9mm that is great shooting gun, and I will/do carry with it with no reservations, but it is no 357Sig.



Yeah, I agree and that pretty well sums it up justherenow, but like posted earlier, every little advantage helps.

I don't care about muzzle energy, if I did I'd be carrying 115gr super duper high velocity jhps in my 9s. I'm not, I carry 147gr rounds because they penetrate the most. Exterior ballistics are all well and good, but terminal ballistics, performance once the bullet has struck the target, are what I care about in carry ammo. I suspect you did not actually take the time to look into the charts I posted, which were all created by ammunition manufacturers. If you had actually looked at them, you would have seen the best performing 9mm rounds were not +p and +p+, they were standard pressure 147gr rounds. Rounds that have similar if not superior terminal performance to the .357 sig loadings from the same manufacturer.

You say every little advantage helps. So even if you choose to ignore that .357 sig has not shown a significant performance increase in terminal ballistic testing, you still have to admit the reduced recoil, lower ammo cost, higher capacity, and reduced blast of 9mm are advantages it enjoys over .357 sig.

[Devone6]

I suspect you did not actually take the time to look into the charts I posted

Yep, you are correct, I can find a chart/table/statistical anaylisis to prove/disprove most any comparision out there. Most every other Dr., PHD, Expert, and John Doe, including me and you obviously, have there own opinion and "chart" to back it up. After over 25 years hunting/shooting, and over 15 years LE/Security/Firearms Instruction, I've looked at enough terminal ballistic, ballistic, "expert" reports, and yada yada yada to pretty much make my decision on calibers. Not to mention some real world incidents I've been involved in which gives a pretty darn good foundation to review calibers, instead of depending on someone else's information which comes from.......someone else.

You say every little advantage helps. So even if you choose to ignore that .357 sig has not shown a significant performance increase in terminal ballistic testing, you still have to admit the reduced recoil, lower ammo cost, higher capacity, and reduced blast of 9mm are advantages it enjoys over .357 sig.

reduced recoil, lower ammo cost, higher capacity, and reduced blast of 9mm are advantages it enjoys over .357 sig

Well obviously, but the above is kinda flawed thinking, cause we can use that to show the advantages the 22lr has over the 9mm too, which we both know is not really an advantage. Bottom line, everyones idea of advantage is subjective, so I agree with you on this.

As for "no significant performance increase", What can I say...., I guess myself, most every other poster on this thread, and the:
United States Secret Service
Federal Air Marshals
Internal Revenue Service's Criminal Investigation Unit
ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement)
Treasury Inspector General
North Carolina State Highway Patrol
North Carolina DMV Enforcement
North Carolina Wildlife Enforcement
New Mexico State Police
Rhode Island State Police
Virginia State Police
South Dakota State Police
Montana Highway Patrol
Delaware State Police
Tennessee Highway Patrol
Texas Department of Public Safety
Oklahoma Highway Patrol
Pennsylvania Game Commission

Not to mention a large number of smaller agencies, just a few being......
Paramus Police Department in New Jersey
Bastrop County Texas Sheriff's Office
Alameda County Sheriff's Office in CA
Nashville Metro Police
Bedford Heights Police Department in Ohio
Elloree Police Department in South Carolina
Madison Police Department in Madison, WV
Lexington Police Department in North Carolina
Richmond City Sheriff's Office in Virginia
Wake County Sheriff's Office in North Carolina
Twin Cities Police Department in CA
Nags Head Police Department (NC)

and the:
Canadian Forces Special Operations Unit Joint Task Force
Canadian Naval Boarding Units

And who knows how many more that carry, or have the option to carry, the 357Sig are misled and should have consulted your obviously superior opinion and charts.

Performance of in the league of a 38Super, 9x23Win, or 357Magnum, all of which generally require a full size weapon, harnessed in a more compact weapon, higher capacity....it's not by chance these agencies switched to the 357Sig, some from the 9mm, 40S&W, 10mm, and at least one from the 357Mag.

Of course the two remaining state police agencies using the 9mm might agree with you, and the Goverment (Armed Forces), aside from the special forces groups who can choose a different caliber, which almost all have.

Listen, I'm not bashing the 9mm, I agree they are cheaper to shoot, and are plenty adequate. I just think it is a little odd you have put up such an argument to defend the 9mm compared to the 357Sig in this thread, when the thread wasn't even about that, and the difference is pretty easy to see.

Maybe you are trying to convince yourself...?

Anyway, we will agree to disagree, I pretty sure I will not convince you, and I'm positive you will not convince me, so I will bow out.

[BARobinson]

Why, I see no reason to go with 357 unless you like searching for and paying a large price in ammo. 40S&W is a much better option and if you still really want to go 357 all you will need is to swap out the barrel

[AZ Desertrat]

I wouldnt....unless you reload...its too damn expensive....

[21bubba]

I wouldnt....unless you reload...its too damn expensive....

Advantages have a price.

[Dragman]

Advantages have a price.

amen! gotta pay to play!!

[BARobinson]

Texag is is a diehard 9mm user. Your not going to change this. I agree 357 is a far better round but if he wants to go 9 let him. I know many people like this and who just cant understand why I hate 9mm. Sure, you get 1-2 rounds more in a magazine but who cares when you have to unload the full mag in center mass to stop someone? I grew up around the military and everyone I knew hated the 9 for that. It has no stopping power. Yeah, yeah, I know its shot placement. Well, why not just use a 22 then if your placement is right it will also do the job. Problem is placement is not easy to get. A person will not just stand there generally while you take aim. If ever he and the others get into a real gun fight, Hopefully never does, and the other guy is using 40,357 45 or similar. They will learn real fast.

[Lyndo]

BA I am going to clarify something, now I do realize the advantage to the .357 SIG but your thought line is slightly flawed. I have spent the vast majority of my adult life in the US Army so I have to say we hate the 9mm round because we are limited to FMJ ammunition which makes it very ineffective. Since I have been out I have carried the 9mm more than anything else and with modern expanding ammunition I am confident in it, well placed shots will put down the threat. If the military would allow us to carry hollowpoint ammunition it would probably change how many of us feel about the 9x19 round.