+P and night vision

+P and night vision

This is a discussion on +P and night vision within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hey, as I've mentioned, I'm looking for a job as a security guard. In FL, Armed Guards are restricted to 9mm autos or .38 Special ...

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Array BRTCP88's Avatar
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    +P and night vision

    Hey, as I've mentioned, I'm looking for a job as a security guard. In FL, Armed Guards are restricted to 9mm autos or .38 Special revolvers. So I've been researching defensive 9mm loads and I found this article: Ammunition For The Self-Defense Firearm

    The author recommends the Cor Bon 115 Grain +P Jacketed Hollowpoints. However, the head instructor at the school where I took my Class G training cautioned that +P's have a greater muzzle flash and it could screw with your night vision if you had to use your firearm in the dark. I know some people here carry +P ammo, have you ever had a problem?


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    Don't rely on speculation... find a place or a course where you can train in low-light. Validate to your own satisfaction that you can run the gun (including reloading) and hit the target, and use the opportunity to check out your favorite defensive ammo.
    Smitty
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    I tried out several popular defensive 9mm loads, and particular evaluated them for muzzle flash. I found the Speer gold dot 124 grain +P JHP and the Corbon DPX to be very reasonable. The Remington's I tried (a well-rated model whose name I've forgotten) were terrible with regard to muzzle flash. The Corbons would not feed reliably through my pistol, so I carry the gold dots.
    In the heat of the moment, what matters is what your body knows -- not what your mind knows.

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    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    wait they restrict your caliber loads in florida, pardon my french but thats some bull, i am sure the average person can carry whatever they want its stupid that you should be restricted. to answer your question, 38+p only has extra flash with a short barrel
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

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    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    That Chuck Hawks article is over a decade old, and doesn't look at any of the modern JHP designs (it also relies on a thoroughly debunked study--Marshal & Sanow--to reach it's conclusions).

    I'd recommend a little more modern reading, that doesn't limit you to what was available when Clinton was in office.

    Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo

    As to +P, and all that--note that several of the 9mm choices are NOT +P loads; assuming that your pistol likes them, any of the 147gr rounds listed would do just fine.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

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    Here go da link ~~~> BuffaloBore

    Consider the BuffaloBore +p or +p+ in 9mm because BuffaloBore uses flash supressed powder.

    For a really good shorter barrel .38SPL offering - try the BuffaloBore 125gr JHP Std Pressure Low Flash - it really IS Low Flash (I have shot this one at night) & that is what my better half presently carries in her S&W wheelie.

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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    The low light muzzle flash issue is in my opinion an over cooked bunch of crap. I have done alot , I mean alot of low to no light shooting, and this is what you will find; If the flash bothers you, you cant see the sites anyway. And if you cant see the sites, you cant really see the target very well.
    Try it for yourself. Go out and wait until it gets dusk or almost dark and try some aimed fire at a target.
    Choose the best ammo based on terminal performance.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    Senior Member Array BRTCP88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfcmb View Post
    I tried out several popular defensive 9mm loads, and particular evaluated them for muzzle flash. I found the Speer gold dot 124 grain +P JHP and the Corbon DPX to be very reasonable. The Remington's I tried (a well-rated model whose name I've forgotten) were terrible with regard to muzzle flash. The Corbons would not feed reliably through my pistol, so I carry the gold dots.
    Thanks for the info.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
    That Chuck Hawks article is over a decade old, and doesn't look at any of the modern JHP designs (it also relies on a thoroughly debunked study--Marshal & Sanow--to reach it's conclusions).

    I'd recommend a little more modern reading, that doesn't limit you to what was available when Clinton was in office.

    Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo

    As to +P, and all that--note that several of the 9mm choices are NOT +P loads; assuming that your pistol likes them, any of the 147gr rounds listed would do just fine.
    LOL, I didn't notice the date

    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    wait they restrict your caliber loads in florida, pardon my french but thats some bull, i am sure the average person can carry whatever they want its stupid that you should be restricted. to answer your question, 38+p only has extra flash with a short barrel
    Yeah my instructor said that too. In order to become a armed security officer you have to take forty hours to get a class D license which is unarmed security, than you have to take twenty-eight more hours of training and score at least 160/240 on the range (BTW, I scored 225 only a few people outscored me) in order to get your Class G which is the armed license.

    To get you're Concealed Weapons and Firearms license, however, you only have to take a two hour class and fire two rounds (my instructor didn't even look to see if I hit the target.)

    So you're right, it doesn't make a lick of sense. I'd still carry a 9mm even if I could carry something different though. I'm not a recoil wimp, I've shot forties and forty-fives and enjoyed them, but I believe that in a gun fight bullet placement > caliber and the 9mm is cheaper to practice with.

    Oh, and don't worry about your French. I'm fluent in it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
    That Chuck Hawks article is over a decade old, and doesn't look at any of the modern JHP designs (it also relies on a thoroughly debunked study--Marshal & Sanow--to reach it's conclusions).
    Unless you're a first cousin to Marty Fackler, I wouldn't say that the Marshal and Sanow work has been "thoroughly debunked." One can question their conclusions and their treatment of the raw data, but so far no one else has stepped up with anywhere near as comprehensive an examination of field data. One could easily dismiss the "gelatin junkies'" work as not realistic, as well.

    We can't even say that the "truth" lies somewhere between the controlled lab studies and the field data. Both add depth and texture to the discussion of what works in the field.
    Smitty
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    Unless you're a first cousin to Marty Fackler, I wouldn't say that the Marshal and Sanow work has been "thoroughly debunked." One can question their conclusions and their treatment of the raw data, but so far no one else has stepped up with anywhere near as comprehensive an examination of field data. One could easily dismiss the "gelatin junkies'" work as not realistic, as well.

    We can't even say that the "truth" lies somewhere between the controlled lab studies and the field data. Both add depth and texture to the discussion of what works in the field.
    With all due respect, when someone falsifies data and gets caught doing it, it's fairly well debunked in my opinion.

    Just my perspective. Others may feel differently.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    The low light muzzle flash issue is in my opinion an over cooked bunch of crap. I have done alot , I mean alot of low to no light shooting, and this is what you will find; If the flash bothers you, you cant see the sites anyway. And if you cant see the sites, you cant really see the target very well.
    Try it for yourself. Go out and wait until it gets dusk or almost dark and try some aimed fire at a target.
    Choose the best ammo based on terminal performance.
    I'm going to agree with that sentiment, I would pick a round that does a good job of ending a threat 24/7 first and foremost. Honestly, even when firing at night without NVG's, I was too busy worrying about other stuff to ever really notice the muzzle flash, but maybe that is just me.

    Are you planning on carrying a flashlight on your security job? Because that is going to mess with your night vision while you are using it more than the possible muzzle flash, if you need to shoot. (And wouldn't you be illuminating the target in low/no night before firing anyways?) You aren't running an LP/OP in Taliban country, you are going to be doing security, where you will need to be able to properly identify the threat. In no way was that last sentence supposed to be demeaning or insulting in any way. It was meant to show that your primary on the job concerns are going to be of a different tactical nature, since you aren't going to be snooping and pooping in hostile territory.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

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    Distinguished Member Array Knightrider's Avatar
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    I've shot my +p+ Federals at night with the only lighting that was only provided was my LED mag light and a officers mag light and the flash wasn't bad.
    Glock: G22 .40 S&W and G23 .40 S&W Sig Sauer: P938 9mm Smith and Wesson: Model 437 .38 Spl, Model 65 357 Mag, and Sigma SW9VE 9mm

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    Senior Member Array BRTCP88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckeyeLCPL View Post
    I'm going to agree with that sentiment, I would pick a round that does a good job of ending a threat 24/7 first and foremost. Honestly, even when firing at night without NVG's, I was too busy worrying about other stuff to ever really notice the muzzle flash, but maybe that is just me.

    Are you planning on carrying a flashlight on your security job? Because that is going to mess with your night vision while you are using it more than the possible muzzle flash, if you need to shoot. (And wouldn't you be illuminating the target in low/no night before firing anyways?) You aren't running an LP/OP in Taliban country, you are going to be doing security, where you will need to be able to properly identify the threat. In no way was that last sentence supposed to be demeaning or insulting in any way. It was meant to show that your primary on the job concerns are going to be of a different tactical nature, since you aren't going to be snooping and pooping in hostile territory.
    No, I get it. No insult taken. I do plan on carrying a light, but I was thinking of a scenario where someone jumps out at me and I don't have time to pull my flashlight out.

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    I have an extensive background with weapons and ammunition, and I’ve come to the scientific analysis whereby I choose my ammo based on how pretty it looks.
    glockman10mm likes this.
    “Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saber View Post
    I have an extensive background with weapons and ammunition, and I’ve come to the scientific analysis whereby I choose my ammo based on how pretty it looks.
    I had a friend I used to bow hunt with who liked archery because of "purty arrows". That is an important factor, who wants to walk around with a purty gun filled with ugly bullets?
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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