.40 cal Bullet for Personal Defense - Page 3

.40 cal Bullet for Personal Defense

This is a discussion on .40 cal Bullet for Personal Defense within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by smolck I just read a post here where a cop was using Cor Bon bullets and had a shoot out with a ...

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Thread: .40 cal Bullet for Personal Defense

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    I just read a post here where a cop was using Cor Bon bullets and had a shoot out with a perp and the cop said after the fact that he didn't like the performance of the bullet and switched to Gold Dots.
    I don't buy the "Ammo Failure" excuse people like to throw around.

    Pistol ammo sucks. All of it. It's underpowered, impotent crap used only because carrying a submachinegun, shotgun or rifle is not acceptable in most situations, so it's all people - cops and the rest of us - have most times.

    Pistol ammo needs to be applied to the brain, spine or heart to be effective.

    To do this, you need 4 things:

    Sight picture
    Sight alignment
    Trigger control
    Follow through.

    A failure to use these things means you will not hit what you need to hit.

    Not hitting what you need to hit means your ammo, even expensive corbon DPX, will fail.

    That means YOU will fail.

    And when you fail, you will die.

    The use of a firearm in personal defense is not an endeavor in which you have much slack. Performance is demanded on pain of death - yours.

    If you are not happy with your ammo's performance, look to your own first. If you have delivered accurate hits on target, then talk to me about ammo failure.

    Till then...then only ammo you need is practice ammo.
    tbrenke likes this.


  2. #32
    Member Array GettingOld2's Avatar
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    Thread Hijack ON:

    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    As an avid archer and bow hunter the debate of speed vs weight of arrow comes up all the time. Some say fast, lighter arrows do better and others say heavier is the way to go. Obviously the law of physics would tend to tell me that heavier is better, even at a slower velocity because of the laws of energy and momentum. It is just plain harder to stop something heavy.
    Actually Physics says nothing of the kind. Despite the debate you reference, with bows the variables are fewer and readily accounted for. There is an energy transfer distribution curve that tails off in both directions of the weight distribution. In short, what this means is that there is a "sweet spot" unique to each bow that provides maximum energy transfer to the arrow. Deviating in either direction of heavier or lighter arrows from this spot will lose arrow energy.

    Thread Hijack OFF:

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    when we reduce weight, we are reducing sectional density. That is the overall bullet length. Imagine a freight train pulling 4 cars behind it. Or, 6 football players in a perfect line one in front of the other attempting to penetrate the line of scrimmage. Now , take half off the back of both, and imagine the difference it will make in straight line penetration. Thats essentially what you are doing when you cut bullet weight. You are trading bullet weight and momentum for a little more speed. If, both hollowpoints open at the same time, which one will slow down the quickest against the resistance of the body?


    Sectional density always favors the smaller caliber. A 180 grn 40 will have more SD than a 180 grn 45. Check it out for yourself.
    The problem with the 180gr load in .40s&w is that you've got less room in the cartridge for powder. If you look at the velocity/energy numbers, the 165gr has a lot more energy than the 180, even though the 180 is heavier.

    Now, if you could get the velocity the same, then yes. In the 10mm you can, but the .40 is just too short.

    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Me too...

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  4. #34
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneshot View Post
    Palmer took an astonishing 22 hits, seventeen of which were to center mass, before succumbing to his wounds, and Officer Soulis was shot four times without suffering any serious adverse effects on his performance. These facts point out why it is so vitally important to understand that bullets don’t always stop their target, even when they strike vital areas in large numbers.
    Gee maybe we sould forward this to the anti's that want to ban 10 round magazines!

  5. #35
    New Member Array ruger345's Avatar
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    i have Hornady Critical Defense .40 S&W 165gr FTX in my H&K P-2000

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    I don't buy the "Ammo Failure" excuse people like to throw around.

    Pistol ammo sucks. All of it. It's underpowered, impotent crap used only because carrying a submachinegun, shotgun or rifle is not acceptable in most situations, so it's all people - cops and the rest of us - have most times.

    Pistol ammo needs to be applied to the brain, spine or heart to be effective.

    To do this, you need 4 things:

    Sight picture
    Sight alignment
    Trigger control
    Follow through.

    A failure to use these things means you will not hit what you need to hit.

    Not hitting what you need to hit means your ammo, even expensive corbon DPX, will fail.

    That means YOU will fail.

    And when you fail, you will die.

    The use of a firearm in personal defense is not an endeavor in which you have much slack. Performance is demanded on pain of death - yours.

    If you are not happy with your ammo's performance, look to your own first. If you have delivered accurate hits on target, then talk to me about ammo failure.

    Till then...then only ammo you need is practice ammo.
    ^^^ THIS ^^^

    Having the latest, greatest +P+ Uranium tipped nuke-a-puke round is not what determines whether or not you go home after the fight.

    Training, mindset lead to the ability to get good hits under stress - and that is what determines if you live or die.

    Buy a reputable brand of ammo (i.e. forget all the super-prefragmented-hyper-velocity gimmick stuff out there and buy a top-shelf branded JHP). Then stop the endless measurebation over ammo performance and instead concentrate on shooter performance.

    Just my opinion, for what it's worth.
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  7. #37
    Member Array boomer1's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    To use a phrase from another industry:

    How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice.....

    It is only through continued practice that proper shot placement becomes second nature. AFter proper shot placement, then we can have the myriad of mental maneuvering about vagaries of the best PD round....lol

    boomer
    Last edited by boomer1; May 13th, 2011 at 03:06 PM. Reason: typo correction
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  8. #38
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    People are gear-centric because it is easier to acquire gear than it is to acquire skill.

    And who really wants to do dryfire every day or BS Stuff like that.

    It's easier to google search the differences between HST and Ranger Talon than it is to put either in the right place.

  9. #39
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    Agreed Mitchell.

    It's easier to buy and research gear, than to buy training

    I'm of the opinion that it doesn't matter what you carry, as long as you are trained how to use it.

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    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

  10. #40
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Just wanted to throw this out there... Ammunition To Go currently has 180gr Federal HST in stock.

    Also, I've seen some testing of the Winchester PDX1, and it looks to be a pretty mean round. [Note: It's only worthwhile in .40, and then only in 180gr. The round was developed around the 180gr for the FBI, and the other calibers and weights are afterthoughts].
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

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  11. #41
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    [Note: It's only worthwhile in .40, and then only in 180gr. The round was developed around the 180gr for the FBI, and the other calibers and weights are afterthoughts].
    Ugh. . . I'm getting tired of seeing this parroted everywhere. If that's how reality worked, we'd all be carrying .38spl lead round nose in our revolvers, semi-autos wouldn't exist or would all be Lugers, and we'd get to the fight in our Model T Ford.

    Besides, the first .40S&W loading was designed to duplicate a 10mm load that was intentionally downloaded because some agents couldn't handle the recoil. While I agree that the 180gr loading is a GREAT round, and I wouldn't feel undergunned carrying it, I carry 165gr because it has slightly better numbers. You can get loads as light as 135 gr (I might have even seen a 125 gr, but can't remember where) or as heavy as 200gr for the .40. All have advantages and disadvantages, but the 180 gr FBI load is the FIRST, not necessarily the BEST, especially for all scenarios.

  12. #42
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by livewire9880 View Post
    Ugh. . . I'm getting tired of seeing this parroted everywhere. If that's how reality worked, we'd all be carrying .38spl lead round nose in our revolvers, semi-autos wouldn't exist or would all be Lugers, and we'd get to the fight in our Model T Ford.

    Besides, the first .40S&W loading was designed to duplicate a 10mm load that was intentionally downloaded because some agents couldn't handle the recoil. While I agree that the 180gr loading is a GREAT round, and I wouldn't feel undergunned carrying it, I carry 165gr because it has slightly better numbers. You can get loads as light as 135 gr (I might have even seen a 125 gr, but can't remember where) or as heavy as 200gr for the .40. All have advantages and disadvantages, but the 180 gr FBI load is the FIRST, not necessarily the BEST, especially for all scenarios.
    If you read the rest of my post you'd know I was referring to the PDX1 load made by Winchester, and I was specifically referring to the ballistics testing which shows the 180gr load as far superior to the 165gr....
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  13. #43
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    If you read the rest of my post you'd know I was referring to the PDX1 load made by Winchester, and I was specifically referring to the ballistics testing which shows the 180gr load as far superior to the 165gr....
    I wasn't ranting at you, but at your source :-D I do hear it a lot in forums though, even here.

  14. #44
    Member Array mrwonderful's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=LanceORYGUN;1915296]Well, maybe I do need to eat my earlier words about this. Here is an interesting comparative test done shooting different .45 ACP loads into jugs of water. Both the 165 gr and 185 gr traditional hollowpoint loads disintegrated and fragmented. All of the heavier bullets, though, held together.

    This chart is most interesting to look at. The Federal HST LE ammo's performance does look most impressive.

    Here is the video to check out:




    No, I think you were pretty well on the mark. You have to remember, bullets shot into water expand violently. And gelatin, well gelatin ain't people. These mediums only give you a way to compare performance in that medium. They are several experts and agencies that follow how these rounds actually perform when shot into people. I value that data more than lab tests. The history of how well a round has done over the years carries weight with me.

    (and I'm not talking about Marshall and Sanow. But they did take a lot of flack from the long defunct International Wound Ballistics Association with many false accusations. I give them more credit than some. They had the temerity to track how people reacted when shot with the various rounds out at that time. Some complained about how they put the data together. I call it tracking history.)
    “Our lives come from God. So does our right to defend them”
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  15. #45
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrwonderful View Post
    The history of how well a round has done over the years carries weight with me.
    Pun intended?

    Ultimately this bullet weight, and even caliber, debates are about the same as comparing the size of one's manhood. Skill is the ultimate judge of usefulness. Given equal skill, size might make a small difference, but it's mostly academic. You'll never have size make up for lack of skill, but if your . . . caliber is too small you've gotta have a LOT of practice and skill.

    Really, as long as you get past the minimum (.380 or 9mm, depending on what debate is going), it comes down to how well you can put two or more rounds into a critical area under extreme stress. I carry a .40 because I like the numbers better, and 165 because it performs best in the data I've seen in that caliber. Do I feel better because what I have is a little bigger and better than the other options I evaluated? Yes. Would I feel unarmed carrying a 115gr 9mm? No. Do I want to get shot by a .22LR? Nope.
    mrwonderful likes this.

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