.40 cal Bullet for Personal Defense

[smolck]

I just read a post here where a cop was using Cor Bon bullets and had a shoot out with a perp and the cop said after the fact that he didn't like the performance of the bullet and switched to Gold Dots.

I have been looking seriously at getting the Cor Bon's for my .40, but the price $41 for 20 and the weight still bother me.

As an avid archer and bow hunter the debate of speed vs weight of arrow comes up all the time. Some say fast, lighter arrows do better and others say heavier is the way to go. Obviously the law of physics would tend to tell me that heavier is better, even at a slower velocity because of the laws of energy and momentum. It is just plain harder to stop something heavy.

That said, I currently carry Federal 180gr JHP's in my .40. I know in a perfect world I could easily conceal and carry a .44 magnum, but the reality is I can't. So I want something that hits hard and does the job. Since I have never shot a person with my pistol, it is all speculation and conjecture about bullet weight and speed being effective or not. Cor Bon says light and fast is better, but seems others who would know (cops that have actually shot people) say different.

Help me arm myself with the best bullets possible! Experienced guys speak up please!

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[sgb]

Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo

.40 S&W
Barnes all-copper bullets (140 & 155gr) loaded by: Cor-Bon (DPX40140)
Winchester Ranger 180gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester Ranger 165gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165gr JHP (RA401P)
Winchester Bonded 180gr JHP (Q4355)
Speer Gold Dot 155gr JHP (53961)
Speer Gold Dot 180gr JHP (53962)
Federal Tactical 165gr JHP (LE40T3)
Federal Tactical 180gr JHP (LE40T1)
Federal HST 180gr JHP (P40HST1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)

[dirtysanchez]

Everytime I see this list I wonder why/how the faster pn. for Speers Gold Dot 165gr load didn't make the cut.

Does anyone know? The first hunch is that possibly the load I referenced wasn't available at the time.

Buhler?

Dirty

[Chevyguy85]

My .40 has 180 grn golden sabers loaded into it. Even in an imperfect world you can still carry that .44 mag you know :-D As far as light/fast vs heavy/slow I choose heavy/slow every time no real reasoning behind it other than I prefer mass over velocity and with things other than bullets too just take my truck as a prime example.

[smolck]

Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo

.40 S&W
Barnes all-copper bullets (140 & 155gr) loaded by: Cor-Bon (DPX40140)
Winchester Ranger 180gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester Ranger 165gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165gr JHP (RA401P)
Winchester Bonded 180gr JHP (Q4355)
Speer Gold Dot 155gr JHP (53961)
Speer Gold Dot 180gr JHP (53962)
Federal Tactical 165gr JHP (LE40T3)
Federal Tactical 180gr JHP (LE40T1)
Federal HST 180gr JHP (P40HST1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)

Thanks for this. I actually saw it after I made my post. Do you all think 180gr or 165gr is better? According to velocity charts the 25gr is good for 150fps.

[Chad Rogers]

Everytime I see this list I wonder why/how

I always wonder who has actually been in the gunfights that allows for such informed answers.

[alachner]

I think this recommended self-defensive ammo list is based on tests with regards to bullet expansion, penetration and wound cavity performed on ballistics gel. I think that if you choose Remington Golden Saber, Speer Gold Dot, Cor-Bon DPX, Federal HST or Winchester Ranger T (with ANY grain) you will be fine in a gun fight. Bullet placement is more important.

[Old School]

I think this recommended self-defensive ammo list is based on tests with regards to bullet expansion, penetration and wound cavity performed on ballistics gel. I think that if you choose Remington Golden Saber, Speer Gold Dot, Cor-Bon DPX, Federal HST or Winchester Ranger T (with ANY grain) you will be fine in a gun fight. Bullet placement is more important.

This !

[TN_Mike]

My wife's and my .40's (Her= XD .40 sc me= Glock 23) are both loaded with Remington Golden Saber 165gr. I would also be ok with the 180gr but we both like the 165gr a little better. They are a bit faster.

[DaveJay]

I carry Federal Tactical 165gr JHPs in my Glock 23...

And I firmly believe what Alachner said in an earlier post.....bullet placement is more important than type...

[nn]

What is the ammo in question----all corbon or power balls?
I would expect corbon except power ball are made to meet FBI specs.

[glockman10mm]

I just read a post here where a cop was using Cor Bon bullets and had a shoot out with a perp and the cop said after the fact that he didn't like the performance of the bullet and switched to Gold Dots.

I have been looking seriously at getting the Cor Bon's for my .40, but the price $41 for 20 and the weight still bother me.

As an avid archer and bow hunter the debate of speed vs weight of arrow comes up all the time. Some say fast, lighter arrows do better and others say heavier is the way to go. Obviously the law of physics would tend to tell me that heavier is better, even at a slower velocity because of the laws of energy and momentum. It is just plain harder to stop something heavy.

That said, I currently carry Federal 180gr JHP's in my .40. I know in a perfect world I could easily conceal and carry a .44 magnum, but the reality is I can't. So I want something that hits hard and does the job. Since I have never shot a person with my pistol, it is all speculation and conjecture about bullet weight and speed being effective or not. Cor Bon says light and fast is better, but seems others who would know (cops that have actually shot people) say different.

Help me arm myself with the best bullets possible! Experienced guys speak up please!

That was my post you read. After 7 contact distance shots the perp still lived. Of course shot placement may have had something to do with it, but, when we reduce weight, we are reducing sectional density. That is the overall bullet length. Imagine a freight train pulling 4 cars behind it. Or, 6 football players in a perfect line one in front of the other attempting to penetrate the line of scrimmage. Now , take half off the back of both, and imagine the difference it will make in straight line penetration. Thats essentially what you are doing when you cut bullet weight. You are trading bullet weight and momentum for a little more speed. If, both hollowpoints open at the same time, which one will slow down the quickest against the resistance of the body?

Same with arrows. I am traditional bow hunter. I use 125 grain cut to the tip heads, and very heavy arrows. For me the trade off is worth it. When the bullet hits the bone, I want a thump.

Sectional density always favors the smaller caliber. A 180 grn 40 will have more SD than a 180 grn 45. Check it out for yourself.

[RebelRabbi]

I am mighty fond of Winchester Ranger SXT 180's. The pre PDX round. I've dug some of these out of Ballstic Gel and Clay Blocks and the jackets are as sharp as a razor, it's mean ammo.

[LanceORYGUN]

I just read a post here where a cop was using Cor Bon bullets and had a shoot out with a perp and the cop said after the fact that he didn't like the performance of the bullet and switched to Gold Dots.

I have been looking seriously at getting the Cor Bon's for my .40, but the price $41 for 20 and the weight still bother me.

As an avid archer and bow hunter the debate of speed vs weight of arrow comes up all the time. Some say fast, lighter arrows do better and others say heavier is the way to go. Obviously the law of physics would tend to tell me that heavier is better, even at a slower velocity because of the laws of energy and momentum. It is just plain harder to stop something heavy.

That said, I currently carry Federal 180gr JHP's in my .40. I know in a perfect world I could easily conceal and carry a .44 magnum, but the reality is I can't. So I want something that hits hard and does the job. Since I have never shot a person with my pistol, it is all speculation and conjecture about bullet weight and speed being effective or not. Cor Bon says light and fast is better, but seems others who would know (cops that have actually shot people) say different.

Help me arm myself with the best bullets possible! Experienced guys speak up please!

Smolck:

That account was so extremely vague and nebulous as to be basically meaningless. No information at all was provided regarding where the suspect was hit, or even the nature of the wounds that the ammo caused. Without such basic information, there is no way that the ammunition itself can be blamed in any way at all.

There was also no clear indication even that the bad guy was still a credible threat. Being able to raise oneself up on your elbows does not necessarily mean that you are still capable of putting up a fight.

The writer of the original magazine article that was referred to, Massad Ayoob, is NOT a member of the heavy bullet/deep penetration crowd that promotes that type of defensive ammo. I cannot imagine Ayoob himself making any kind of argument that the Corbon 45 ACP 185 gr +P loading is in any way an inadequate self-defense round. The account of the article only indicates that the police officer was unhappy with the round due to supposedly a lack of penetration. But again, without any real details, there is no way to know if that is in any way an accurate assessment of the situation.

Making a scapegoat out of the ammo seems to me to be an all too easy way for the officer himself to not take responsibility for the outcome of the shootout.

.

[LanceORYGUN]

Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo

.40 S&W
Barnes all-copper bullets (140 & 155gr) loaded by: Cor-Bon (DPX40140)
Winchester Ranger 180gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester Ranger 165gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165gr JHP (RA401P)
Winchester Bonded 180gr JHP (Q4355)
Speer Gold Dot 155gr JHP (53961)
Speer Gold Dot 180gr JHP (53962)
Federal Tactical 165gr JHP (LE40T3)
Federal Tactical 180gr JHP (LE40T1)
Federal HST 180gr JHP (P40HST1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)

If you look closely, you will see that that webpage is just a rehash of the recommendations of the long defunct International Wound Ballistics Association, which was comprised of Martin L. Fackler and other followers of his beliefs, as well as Gary Roberts, a Dentist associated with FirearmsTactical.com, and also a believer in Fackler's opinions. As far as I can determine, that website is also pretty much defunct. They have had only one new page added to the website since 2002.

And the operator of FirearmsTactical.com? He has 6 years experience as a RESERVE Police Officer in a small town.

Those recommendations are all heavily biased towards followers of Fackler who believe that only heavy, very deep penetrating bullets are effective for self-defense.

.