12ga Defensive Ammo Recommendations (OVER PENETRATION SERIOUS CONCERN)

This is a discussion on 12ga Defensive Ammo Recommendations (OVER PENETRATION SERIOUS CONCERN) within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; talk about being able to reach out and touch some one! oh yeah...

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Thread: 12ga Defensive Ammo Recommendations (OVER PENETRATION SERIOUS CONCERN)

  1. #31
    Member Array chp1911's Avatar
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    talk about being able to reach out and touch some one! oh yeah

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array Superhouse 15's Avatar
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    I did a test of the Centurion load a while back and posted it here. After testing it i believe it is inapropriate for defense in an apartment. That round ball penetrated more than any slug I've ever shot. That includes Brenneke magnum slugs and various sabot loads. It penetrated more than any FMJ .30 cal rifle round.
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  4. #33
    Distinguished Member Array RevolvingMag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superhouse 15 View Post
    I did a test of the Centurion load a while back and posted it here. After testing it i believe it is inapropriate for defense in an apartment. That round ball penetrated more than any slug I've ever shot. That includes Brenneke magnum slugs and various sabot loads. It penetrated more than any FMJ .30 cal rifle round.
    Wow. I didn't realize that they had that much penetration. The refrigerator sits exactly opposite the bedroom door, so that will backstop a little. But, like I said- the shotgun is the last line of defense. I will use my 22 .45ACPs, AND my 12 .357mags before it gets to 'shotgun level'.

    I will, however, be looking into getting some shot shells with less penetration power. Thanks for the info.
    "Rock and load, lock and roll... what's it matter? FIRE!!"

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  5. #34
    VIP Member Array Superhouse 15's Avatar
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    Try not to screw up so bad they name the screw up after you. (Station 15 saying)

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  6. #35
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    I'm an apartment dweller like the OP, so I have the same overpenetration concerns; I've settled on #4 buck as a compromise.
    An afterthought: no matter what load you use in that 12-gage against an intruder, its gonna make a mess.

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    I'm moving to an apartment Sunday from my parents house (finally) and will be switching to #4 soon. The only real downside I've seen to #4 is that it spreads a little fast for the liking pf some, but I don't think the apartment I'm moving into has any LOS greater than about 20', so I can't imagine over that distance it's going to matter much. The #4 will also be a little easier on my soon-to-be wife, who has decided that she does not like #00 one bit, haha.

    Afterthought: Tell you what, I'll switch to #4 as soon as I find someone who sells a decent load locally or online...
    Last edited by paaiyan; April 26th, 2011 at 01:47 PM.
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  8. #37
    Member Array mitchellh's Avatar
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    .223 Drywall Penetration: Introduction

    Not completely shotgun, but some interesting stuff.

  9. #38
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    I definitely like the idea of "hardening" key points of the apartment according to fields of fire. Another thought is since a shotgun is much more of a barricade weapon and it's a second floor apartment, what about getting low. When considering the defensive position try to be aiming at an upward angle so that any shot not absorbed by the bad guy will mostly go above where neighbors would be - in a perfect world of couse :). Once again, anything capable of stopping a threat will go through numerous walls - shotgun, rifle, or pistol; including HP's.

  10. #39
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    I go with #1 Buck in my Mossie 500. Don't plan on missing. Plan on hitting your target. If the danger of collateral damage worries you, hit the range and work on accuracy. I'm not having any difficulty whatsoever hitting targets at 25 yards each and every time. Indoors, it's going to be much closer. More like point-blank.
    Granted indoors it will most likely be 15 feet or less, BUT the target will be moving, unless you get a really cooperative bad guy.
    Also remember the whole point of a shotgun over a rifle is that the aim does not have to be as perfect, the pattern is to make sure some of the load hits paydirt. This of course means that some of it may not hit the bad guy, hence the concern over penetration.

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  12. #41
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    ^ Yup. It's well known in ballistic circles that buckshot will not 'overpenetrate' like some believe. Quite the opposite.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickySantoro View Post

    Whenever someone tells you that they are telling you the "truth" it is time for you to be extremely skeptical.

    Such stated "truths" are often anything but.

    The author of that page shows extremely flawed logic, by first showing that #4 Buckshot penetrated almost as well as the larger size buckshot did, and then turned around and made a stupid blanket statement that it is a well known "fact" that tests have shown it to be inadequate at reaching vital organs. The "truth" is that there is no such documented "fact" at all, otherwise he would have cited it.

    Besides, many of the better Self Defense Buckshot loads are now using hard, copper plated Buckshot, that penetrates better than plain lead Buckshot. From the photos on that page, you can see that he was using cheaper plain lead buckshot.

    Smaller size Buckshot like #4 Buckshot will tend to give you slightly larger groups, yet also have greater pattern density too, due to the greatly increased number of Buckshot. The result? An extremely massively sized wound if shot into a living animal, or the collapsed walls seen in the photo on that website.


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  14. #43
    New Member Array kdmoore's Avatar
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    OK, you are going to get a healthy dose of my OPINION. Take it with a grain of salt, see if it makes sense to you. If so, IM me, I'll give you my paypal credentials and you can send me .02 cents.

    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    ...Also remember the whole point of a shotgun over a rifle is that the aim does not have to be as perfect...
    I really don't like these kind of statements ... I think it puts us in the wrong mindset. If you are pulling the trigger with the mindset "that's close enough" you can be doing yourself a real disservice. Do not tell your mind you only need to be within XX inches to make a hit. Always go for the centered round. THEN IF YOU FAIL the spread of a shotgun MIGHT make up for it. That's the mindset I think is important, tho for some im might seem like splitting hairs.

    I know that everyone has a different way of fighting ... but this is similar to another statement that I hear everywhere (including earlier in this thread) ... ~"I've got XX number of rounds waiting" ... Same mindset, same downfall (IMO). I believe it's far more healthy to worry about where you are putting the next round or two (thinking double tapping if appropriate) than to be thinking "close enough, I have a lot more available to throw the perp's direction". There's a fine line we have to find for ourselves. If you wait for the perfect shot it'll never come or you'll be dead already. I just think we always need to shoot with the mindset of hitting the COM. This is all my opinion only. It's important ESPECIALLY if you are in a thin walled apartment surrounded by friendlies. I'm not, BTW.

    But my personal believe is the shotgun is a great close quarters firearm because it has the ability to hit with devastating power at close range ... i.e. 9 00 pellets in a 3 inch circle. I believe the shotgun should be choked as tightly as it can. It hits easier than a handgun (all long guns do) ... point shooting yields success. In close range it hits harder than a rifle.

    Last thing .... I think #1 buck was tested to be the smallest buckshot that passed the minimum penetration in ballistic gel .. Might have been with denim layers applied as I think #4 buck did ok on bare gel? Anyone know.

    You might guess that I consider your under powering your defense with any birdshot. I have friends that subscribe to the "face full of bird" strategy and we just agree to disagree.

    Your first priority is to end the threat immediately. All other concerns should be secondary ... IMO. Buckshot is the right way to do it... maybe a dose of #1 low recoil is what an apartment owner needs.

  15. #44
    Distinguished Member Array LanceORYGUN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kdmoore View Post
    Last thing .... I think #1 buck was tested to be the smallest buckshot that passed the minimum penetration in ballistic gel .. Might have been with denim layers applied as I think #4 buck did ok on bare gel? Anyone know.
    Well, but the fact is that not all shotgun ammo is created equal. Some loads have higher velocity than others, and some use hardened buckshot that is also copper plated. For example, a load with higher velocity and/or harder copper plated buckshot is going to penetrate deeper. So one really cannot make generalizations like this.

    As far as birdshot goes, Copper Plated Lead BB shot is going to be very deadly at close range. Here is a Remington 2 3/4 inch load of BB shot fired into ballistic gelatin. Most of the pellets penetrated between 10 and 12 inches, with some going much deeper.




    Switching to #4 Buckshot does give much better results, though. Here is a 2 3/4 inch Federal Classic load with plain lead #4 Buckshot fired into ballistic gelatin. Average penetration was about 14 inches:




    A Federal Magnum 2 3/4 shell firing a much heavier load of copper plated #4 Buckshot ( but at much slower velocity ) penetrated to 15 inches:




    Probably the best #4 Buckshot load out now would be Federal's new Premium Self Defense load # PD156 It is a low recoil load, but also uses the hard copper plated #4 Buckshot.

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  16. #45
    Ex Member Array JOHNSMITH's Avatar
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    The copper (or nickel if we're talking about Fiocchi) plated buckshot is usually found in low-recoil loadings... it helps to enhance penetration in order to offset the lighter charge.

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