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12ga Defensive Ammo Recommendations (OVER PENETRATION SERIOUS CONCERN)

29K views 47 replies 32 participants last post by  LanceORYGUN 
#1 ·
I just bought a 12ga Mossberg 500 tactical shotgun for the misses as she does not like shooting pistols that much and is well versed in the use of shotguns. I’m looking for a good defensive round for it and over penetration is a major concern due to living in a second story apartment complex with neighbors on 3 sides of us. As our tactical plan indicates her main sector of fire will cover our outside bed room window and through an outside wall. I’m looking to mitigate collateral damage.
 
#3 ·
Anything that will penetrate a goblin deeply enough to be an effective stopper is going to go through walls, plural. On the flip side, any round that won't penetrate a wall will be an iffy stopper at best.

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
 
#4 ·
I've been using Remington 3" Magnum 00 Buck in my Mossy 500 HD Shotgun. Not sure if it is the best HD round, but it is what I've got. I'd be interested in hearing opinions of what is the best HD round.
 
#5 ·
I should add, the Remington Green box 2 3/4" 00 is my defensive load of choice. I don't get very fancy with my shotgun loads, although if I was to change my buckshot, it would probably be for the federal with the flight-control plugs. I Figure that 00 buck has done the job just fine for over a century, I don't need to change it.

If possible, try to make some of the more likely fields of fire safer, by moving things like book shelves and furniture into the likely area that would be fired into. Some creativity might help.
 
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#6 ·
The average shooting distance inside an apartment home is something like 10 - 12 yards maximum and over penetration is definitely an issue since most apartment buildings in the US have drywall walls. Therefore, to avoid over penetration I would recommend to use birdshot, # 4 buckshot or even better, a combination of both birdshot and # 4 buckshot for maximum stopping power. Load up your first shot with birdshot and then the remaining of the tube load it with # 4 buckshot in case the first shot does not stop the attack. Do not use traditional birdshot, as there are new shotshell loads that have greater performance and tighter patterns. The Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense shot shells are very good (2 3/4 shells with 1 1/2oz of BB's at a velocity of 1,250 ft/s). For # 4 buckshot, I recommend you buy Federal Premium Personal Defense (2 3/4 shells with 34 pellets at a velocity of 1,100 ft/s).



 
#7 ·
Birdshot is an iffy stopper on a good day... as I found out first-hand with a rabid coyote (1 shot of 1-1/8 oz #4s delivered to the chest within 10 yards barely fazed him... took 2 more to put him down for good).

For self-defense indoors, you can't do better than buckshot... but skip the magnum loads. The "tactical" and LE buckshot loads offer reduced recoil and plenty of payload. #4 buck through 00 will do fine.
 
#8 ·
I agree with # 4 buckshot, but read the title "Penetration a Serious Concern". If he shoots 00 Buckshot inside the house and misses, there is a high probability that he will kill a neighbor.
 
#9 ·
I've always thought #2 lead shot was the best under those specific circumstances. Construction methods, shot distances, shotgun barrel length, and choke all figure into the mix when you're using a shotgun 'inside the box'. When one chooses the shotgun as their first line of defense, there's always a lot more to think about than a missed shot. Devastating weapon as it may be, it's only the best choice under very limited circumstances. Choose your means and methods as best you can.
 
#10 ·
I have personally tested 00 buck shot and it scared the hell out of me. It shot straight through the interior and exterior wall of the first house and then proceeded to go through the exterior and interior wall of the second house. That's not all folks! It also penetrated through a fiberglass bath tub and stuck into the linoleum floor. This was tested with two houses that were to be leveled at a friends property. Each house was in working order and the exterior walls were about 25 feet from each other.
 
#11 ·
If you must use birdshot to minimize overpenetration use the biggest size you can and keep the most pellets on target considering the short range. Federal loads a 2 3/4" shell of #4 shot in their "Prarie Storm" line with the awesome Flite Control wad. If you or your lady can handle the recoil they load a 3" shell with #2 birdshot but the recoil is a lot more.

The Flite Control wad keeps a tight pattern independant of the choke in the barrel, it works great even in short HD/SD guns. If you want to maximize performance, bulk packs of low brass #8 unplated shot from Wal Mart won't do. Premium with good patterns gives you the best chance. I have birdshot guns and buckshot guns but anything serious has Federal. The low recoil Flite control 00 for buck and the Flite Control big birdshots.
 
#12 ·
Frankly, I'm bit surprised at all of the recommendations for 00 and even #2. "Know your target and what is beyond." You don't want to knock down a bad guy and then get charged with manslaughter because a round went through the neighbors wall.

#6 high brass 2 3/4" is the largest shot size you can shoot and reasonably expect to not over penetrate. At self defense distances of less than 20 feet, #6's should do the job. Would 00 be better, hell yeah, but those shot are going through the wall, too.

Disclaimer: my home defense round is 9mm JHP and 2 3/4" 00 buck for zombie patrol.
 
#16 ·
I completely agree. The OP is living in an apartment with drywall and neighbors on three different sides. If they shoot a shotgun inside the apartment with 00 buckshot and miss, there is a high probability of collateral damage which could cause them to be charged with manslaughter. Therefore, I wouldn't go any higher than # 4 Buckshot. Perhaps the ideal solution would be to load the first shot with bird shot, the subsequent 3 shots with # 4 Buckshot and then a couple of rounds of 00 buckshot in case the perpetrator is still going or is not willing to back down. I think that a distance from 10 - 12 yards, a shot of bird shot to the upper torso or face would produce such a gruesome wound that it would definitely stop the attack or be lethal. If criminals have been stopped with a .380 round, I'm pretty sure a load of 12 gauge bird shot will do its job.
 
#13 ·
Maybe keep heavy Bird in the chamber and plan on a face target, then have light Buck in the tube for followup if the BG doesn't gett the message.
 
#15 ·
I go with #1 Buck in my Mossie 500. Don't plan on missing. Plan on hitting your target. If the danger of collateral damage worries you, hit the range and work on accuracy. I'm not having any difficulty whatsoever hitting targets at 25 yards each and every time. Indoors, it's going to be much closer. More like point-blank.
 
#39 ·
Granted indoors it will most likely be 15 feet or less, BUT the target will be moving, unless you get a really cooperative bad guy.
Also remember the whole point of a shotgun over a rifle is that the aim does not have to be as perfect, the pattern is to make sure some of the load hits paydirt. This of course means that some of it may not hit the bad guy, hence the concern over penetration.
 
#17 ·
Maybe you should consider a 12ga isn't the right weapon for you if you are so concerned with your neighbors.

If it isn't the right weapon, then it's not the right weapon. Consider a pistol cal carbine mounted with a red dot and loaded with very light ammo, like a beretta storm with an optic and federal C9BPLE which is a 115 grain +p+ jhp.

You get that sucker up over 1500 FPS with a carbine (guessing...) and it's probably not going to exit a person, and with a red dot, you can place that sucker pretty accurately even in low light, under stress if you can keep a head on your shoulders.

If your conditions make the effective use of a weapon you have impossible, and from what I read, you are saying you don't want to use a 12ga to it's proper effect - multiple .30+cal impacts on a bad guy - then it's time to look at something else for an option.

(Yes, this is an argument you should use on your significant others to justify the purchase of a new toy...)
 
#18 ·
If you search the boards you can find an excellent post from Janq on shotgun loads for HD. Lots of experience and lots of ballistics testing and lots of logic and reasoning in it. Long too. At the end of the day, his analysis is that #4 Buck is the best load. Least chance of overpenetration and at HD distances makes a heck of a wound channel, which will make BGs stop fighting you.

All that to say, my 870 is loaded with #4 Buck.
 
#22 ·
My first post in this thread suggested nothing smaller than #4 Buckshot, implying that it was an acceptable choice. It probably is the best choice for the OP.

Also, as noted, the OP should get creative in decorating, and make good fields of fire, so as to stack the deck in his favor. Anyone that has never tried Force on Force training in an urban setting, it is something that should be done. If the OP imagines a trained military team that is going to breech walls, it is a different story. But a room with a single door is very easily defended by one person with an appropriate weapon, even against trained multiple attackers (until you get into frag grenades and stuff, but I am assuming a civilian level here). All you need to do is hunker down behind some cover, like the bed, and aim at the door. Being in a doorway is an exceptionally vulnerable position for an offensive force. And it gives the defender a good, clear shot. So aiming center of mass with a weapon and round that will end the threat is a lot more feasible than a head shot. A COM shot will soak up most of the energy from buckshot, 00 to #4, and if there is overpenetration, and he got creative with his decorating, that should soak it up.

Home defense is about much more than just the round. His handgun will probably over-penetrate in drywall construction, even with HP rounds. So why not load the shotgun with something that works (not bird shot), and do everything possible to make the environment better for the defender, and attempt to mitigate the over-penetration issues.
 
#23 ·
PHP:
Maybe keep heavy Bird in the chamber and plan on a face target, then have light Buck in the tube for followup if the BG doesn't gett the message.
This is just not sound advice. What makes you think that you will have time for a second shot? Anyone worth shooting, is worth shooting decisively, with something that will stop him immediately. That means 00 buck.
 
#24 ·
If I were really concerned about over penetration I would use a different platform (00 buck is by far and away my #1 HD choice).

However, if given no other choice and I have to use the shotgun here I would go with something a little different. I would look seriously at a magnum BB or T shot steel shot load. Steel is lighter than lead so it starts out at a higher velocity, but it slows faster at distance (not a problem for you). The large BB and T shot loads will penetrate fairly deeply up close but as the pattern spreads it will lessen the penetration factor. I think a hot BB shot load would do pretty well.

Keep in mind that this is all just speculation on my part, not fact. It's an idea worth looking at though. I would try to test it at the range before making it your HD load.
 
#26 ·
Well, it is unfortunate that SkySolider never returned to follow up on this discussion that he started. For shooting inside an apartment, I would definitely say that any type of Buckshot is going to be way too dangerous if that is a major concern ( which is what he said his primary concern was ).

Even BB shot is going to have a great chance of going through at such a short range.

I would recommend a HeviShot 2 3/4 inch Duck load in #4 Birdshot as being the best option. At the ranges that one is looking at inside an apartment room, it is going to be very lethal and extremely incapacitating. I doubt that anyone could survive a solid hit anywhere on the trunk of their body.

Another option would be that Remington 2 3/4 inch HD Ultimate Home Defense load that has a duplex of both #2 and #4 Birdshot in it, which Alachner mentioned earlier. That would get the job done too.

Both of these loads use shot that is way heavier than lead, which makes them penetrate deeper than normal lead birdshot.

.
 
#27 ·
I can push my finger hard enough that I can poke a hole in a dry wall. I can punch a dry wall easily through and through. (any adult can really)

I sure as hell can't do it to a human lol.

anything that'll penetrate a human, will go through couple layers of dry wall.

advice? don't miss. lol
 
#28 ·
I use Centurion Multi-Defense "Law Enforcement" rounds in my 12ga. They're big, heavy rounds. I also live in an apartment, but given the way my apartment is laid out, I believe that any BG coming into/towards my bedroom will stop anything I can throw at them. The shotgun is not the "first line" in my home defense (falling third after the 22rds from the .45, and the 12rds from the .357mag), but it is the last I plan on needing. And, BG won't be more than 10 feet away.
 

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#29 ·
At the 10-12 yard range why not cosider less than lethal "beanbag" rounds for you your first and/or second rounds .This will limit your collateral damage, and at those ranges beanbag can be lethal. You could always backup you first two beanbags w/lethal rounds. Anytime you demostrate that your main focus was to stop an agressor and not to kill them ,I belive that the courts will look much more favorably toward the fact that you were defending you and yours no matter what the final outcome of the shooting is. Having said all that if the stupid moron dies from lead poisioning because he/she did not retreat then so be it!
 
#32 ·
I did a test of the Centurion load a while back and posted it here. After testing it i believe it is inapropriate for defense in an apartment. That round ball penetrated more than any slug I've ever shot. That includes Brenneke magnum slugs and various sabot loads. It penetrated more than any FMJ .30 cal rifle round.
 
#33 ·
Wow. I didn't realize that they had that much penetration. The refrigerator sits exactly opposite the bedroom door, so that will backstop a little. But, like I said- the shotgun is the last line of defense. I will use my 22 .45ACPs, AND my 12 .357mags before it gets to 'shotgun level'.

I will, however, be looking into getting some shot shells with less penetration power. Thanks for the info.
 
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