Best 45acp FMJ for Carry?

Best 45acp FMJ for Carry?

This is a discussion on Best 45acp FMJ for Carry? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I've been carrying for years but the gun I am currently screwing around with is a Sig Sauer 1911 RCS. I've owned it since last ...

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Thread: Best 45acp FMJ for Carry?

  1. #1
    Member Array Dr Guido's Avatar
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    Best 45acp FMJ for Carry?

    I've been carrying for years but the gun I am currently screwing around with is a Sig Sauer 1911 RCS. I've owned it since last September and I now trust it to the point that I am going to begin carrying it.

    In the past, I carried a Glock 30, which would feed anything including the kitchen sink, if it was in 45 acp. This Sig is a bit more finicky but I can hit what I aim at, something I could never do well with a Glock. Then I got a Glock36 and found out what rotten factory service Glock produces when they are trying to dodge the fact that they put out a bad design.

    so the question is.

    I've decided to carry with 230 FMJ.

    I know all the arguments against this but I frankly believe that FMJ in a 45 acp is the way to go, at least for me and in this gun. Unfortunately, I am pretty familiar with how I react in a tight situation and I am able to keep my head and put it where it needs to go with a 1911.

    I've looked at all the possibles and would like some comments if you have any experience with this. Obviously, cost is no object for carry ammo.

    These are all 230 gr FMJ factory loads

    Black Hills
    Hornady
    Stan Chen ASYM Match
    Remington UMC Flat Points

    There are others but they are seldom available (Federal Gold Match, Remington UMC with Nickel cases...man, that stuff is GONE) and, of course the Wal-Mart "what have you got this week" stuff, but I don't want to carry that.

    Did I miss anything? Particularly anything that is loaded for a 4 inch barrel?

    Thanks for your comments
    Last edited by Dr Guido; April 26th, 2011 at 08:15 AM.
    After many years of consideration, I must regretfully conclude that diversity is our enemy.


  2. #2
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    My main question would be, why?

    You say cost is no object.

    If your .45 230gr JHP clogs and doesn't expand, then it turns into a 230gr non-expanding slug. JHP is designed for defense use, to expend all the energy into your target. I would try different loads of JHP until I found one that worked reliably in my gun.

    If it doesn't work reliably in your gun, I would give something like Pow'rball a look. But frankly, I think if one is going to be serious about carrying a gun for their protection, they should be serious about the ammo that is in their carry gun. The only "professionals" who use ball ammo anymore is the military, and that is because we have to due to political agreements. The rest of the pro-shooters LEO's and the like, have all switched over to JHP for a reason.
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  3. #3
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    Have you looked at something loke Hornady Critical Defense? its a lighter load than you mentioned,but it might be what your looking for.185 gr. FTX

  4. #4
    Member Array Dr Guido's Avatar
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    I thank you for your input but am hoping for some information from people who have had experience with the ammo listed above. Thanks.
    Reliability is not my only concern. It's just the one I chose to excuse this question.

    Remington Golden Sabers and Speer Gold Dots perform flawlessly in my gun and I'd trust them to function 100% of the time. I've tried other modern hollow points and only the Hornady XTP cone shaped round gave any trouble at all.
    After many years of consideration, I must regretfully conclude that diversity is our enemy.

  5. #5
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    If you're choosing FMJ for the sake of reliability, leave flat points off the list.
    Stan Chen ammo is relatively new and I'd prefer to see it proven in a few years of experience before carrying it.
    Any of the other suppliers makes reliable 230 gr FMJ, so it's just splitting hairs to decide which one. My personal experience is that Remington is the least accurate, Winchester white box is kinda dirty, and Federal (not American Eagle) has good accuracy and is relatively clean. Don't see it much on store shelves, though.
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    Senior Member Array paul45's Avatar
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    "Then I got a Glock36 and found out what rotten factory service Glock produces when they are trying to dodge the fact that they put out a bad design."


    I have not heard about this G36 bad design. Where can I get some information, facts and data. I have been carrying one for a long time as a back-up. I would like to know what is wrong so I can fix it or go after Glock.
    "Being PARANOID is just plain smart thinking when they are really out to get you!"

  7. #7
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    Did you consider expanding FMJs at all?

  8. #8
    Member Array Dr Guido's Avatar
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    If your model 36 works flawlessly, there is nothing wrong with it. Many of them were produced with a...wait for it...wait for it...Magazine Slot in the frame that was too large. So large that you can wiggle an empty magazine in the gun and the slide lock will drop. I had mine back to the factory several times and finally took it to a local gunsmith who had a new 36 in stock. Comparison showed the gunsmith that the frame was indeed too big. Glock said the gun was in specs and it was the magazine that was the problem...6 brand new magazines bought by me all turned out to be "Faulty".

    Again, if your's works and does hold the slide open after the last shot, it's OK.
    After many years of consideration, I must regretfully conclude that diversity is our enemy.

  9. #9
    Member Array Dr Guido's Avatar
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    Gentlemen, Thank you again for your input and concern. I prefer a FMJ round because I want to be as certain as possible that the BG I shoot has two, and not one hole in him so he will have a better chance of bleeding out before an ambulance can arrive. Nobody ever died from a gunshot wound unless a sniper hit them in the Medula Oblongota with a head shot. They bleed out.

    So, if anyone has any experience with these FMJ rounds, I'd appreciate your input.
    After many years of consideration, I must regretfully conclude that diversity is our enemy.

  10. #10
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    So, basically you WANT over-penetration? Which, by the way, you probably aren't going to get with such slow cartridge.

    The purpose of hollow points is to maximize trauma... and you have a better chance of more blood loss with hollow points vs ball because of that extra trauma.

    Think of a piece of cheese that you stab with a knife.. the cheese just collapses around the cut and when you remove the knife there is almost no evidence that you even stabbed it. With FMJ ammo a single shot causes minimal damage and the wound track collapses on itself and can act as its own plug because it's a pretty clean wound. Now if you stab that cheese and turn the knife, maximizing trauma, it grinds up the cheese and even when you remove the knife there is still a lot of trauma and chewed up cheese. A hollow point SHOULD expand and maximize trauma by cutting and tearing flesh so that it can't as easily collapse on itself and you get more trauma and therefore more blood loss and the wound is not so easily treated because fragments can remain as well. But either way it's not going to be like in the movies where there is a see-through hole that sprays blood and provides someone bleeds out in 30-seconds (unless you are lucky enough to hit an artery).

    And PS.. we aren't all gentlemen here.. some of us are ladies. a

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Guido View Post
    Gentlemen, Thank you again for your input and concern. I prefer a FMJ round because I want to be as certain as possible that the BG I shoot has two, and not one hole in him so he will have a better chance of bleeding out before an ambulance can arrive. Nobody ever died from a gunshot wound unless a sniper hit them in the Medula Oblongota with a head shot. They bleed out.

    So, if anyone has any experience with these FMJ rounds, I'd appreciate your input.
    I guess I've always had the wrong approach to defensive shooting. My focus has always been shooting until the threat stops.

    I never knew I should tailor my gear to making sure the assailant bleeds out "before the ambulance can arrive".

    As for people not dying from gunshot wounds but instead bleeding out, I am not sure what that even means.

    If they do bleed out, wasn't it because of the GSW?

    What of a GSW victim that dies because of cardiovascular collapse caused by a hemo/pneumothorax? Or mechanical damage to the heart? They don't "bleed out" per se, but they sure do die.

    If you choose to limit the effectiveness of your defensive firearm by using FMJ, that's your choice. But you'll get negative feedback from the vast majority of those who understand terminal ballistics.

    Let me ask you this - are you aware of any law enforcement agency that elects to carry FMJ? The military are bound to by treaty, but I'm unaware of any agency that has a choice selecting FMJ. Could there be a reason for that?

    Matt
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  12. #12
    VIP Member Array Madcap_Magician's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Guido View Post
    Gentlemen, Thank you again for your input and concern. I prefer a FMJ round because I want to be as certain as possible that the BG I shoot has two, and not one hole in him so he will have a better chance of bleeding out before an ambulance can arrive. Nobody ever died from a gunshot wound unless a sniper hit them in the Medula Oblongota with a head shot. They bleed out.

    So, if anyone has any experience with these FMJ rounds, I'd appreciate your input.
    Wow. Just... wow.

    Not to beat a dead horse, but...

    1. As we've seen with NATO 9mm FMJ, your opponent having two holes in him rather than one has little correlation to how fast he goes down. FMJ, particularly round nose ammo, tends to push tissue out of the way and leave permanent wound cavities smaller than the bullet and a "puckered' entrance wound. Frequently FMJ creates an effect kind of like being stabbed with an ice pick- a through-and-through wound that causes relatively little damage.
    2. If your goal is to kill your opponent before an ambulance can arrive, JHP is still your best bet, but a good criminal defense lawyer is even better.
    3. Plenty of people died from gunshot wounds for reasons other than blood loss or destruction of the medulla oblongata. It's possible to die from systemic shock, for one.
    4. Whether or not the person dies from blood loss eventually does not mean they're going to die now, which means that they may still have plenty of time left in them after being punctured by your ineffective ammo choice to kill you anyway.
    5. I think it's questionable that two holes bleed out any faster than one hole. This may sound like an attractive theory if you look at the human body like a set of PVC pipes, but it's not. In order to get a life-threatening bleed, you have to damage or destroy a major blood-bearing vessel or organ. An FMJ round creates a smaller hole, and with less tissue destruction, the wound may have a tendency to close itself somewhat anyway. It is not the number of holes that matter, but how much damage is done to the blood-bearing structure that will determine how quickly hypovolemic shock occurs.
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  13. #13
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    "Remington Golden Sabers and Speer Gold Dots perform flawlessly in my gun and I'd trust them to function 100% of the time."

    For me that would end my search for a self defense round. That's all I use in My Glock 21 and Glock 36. You are limiting your weapons ability with FMJ. JMHO.
    "Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

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    Other posters have covered the various reasons why we SHOULD load our pistols up with defensive JHP ammo.

    As per the OPs bleeding out of two whole theory, I would think that JHP that doesn't come out and stays in would lead to more internal bleeding. I'm no doctor, but wouldn't internal bleeding be harder to stop by medics/doctors than an entrance and exti wound?

    OP, you are not going to find much if any support for using FMJ unless its for a weaker round like .380 (not knocking .380, I carry one as a bug and switch to FMJ during the winter).

    Most FMJ is for target practice or the military for a reason.

    And no, I'm not a ballistics expert, this stuff is common knowledge.

  15. #15
    Member Array Dr Guido's Avatar
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    I surrender. I swear by all that is Holy in the Firearms world that Speer Gold Dots will be my choice. I chose them over Golden Sabers because they have a special load for short barrels and my gun has a 4.25" barrel. And, of course, I've shot about a hundred rounds of them and not one has caused any problems whatsoever.

    You guys (and gals...sorry for my bad PC error) are fun, that's for sure.

    All my base are belong to you.
    After many years of consideration, I must regretfully conclude that diversity is our enemy.

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