The effect of pistol bullets on bone. Important or moot?
This is a discussion on The effect of pistol bullets on bone. Important or moot? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I posted this on another forum in hopes to get more opinions as I value the input of all who comment. Sorry if this appears ...
July 27th, 2006 12:34 PM
The effect of pistol bullets on bone. Important or moot?
I posted this on another forum in hopes to get more opinions as I value the input of all who comment. Sorry if this appears as a duplicate and I apologize in advance if the issue has been discussed in detail before.
In doing searches here and on other forums, I don't find very much reference regarding the effect of pistol caliber bullets on bone. Most of the discussions regarding caliber end up with photographs being posted of bullets being shot through ballistic gelatin.
While we know that ballistic gelatin is a decent simulation for tissue and that it also provides a consistent medium from which relationships between bullets can be drawn, we also know that it is homogenous, unlike the body.
Another "consistent medium" is bowling pins and while this IS a poor comparison to human anatomy, it nonetheless demonstrates a lesser-emphasized quality of momentum.
It would seem to me that given similar bullet construction (ogive and face, in particular) the bullet with the higher momentum would tend to have a more crippling effect on the skeletal system than those with lower momentum. Within a given caliber, it is probably nominal as we are talking basically about differences mainly in sectional density... i.e. a 147gr 9mm will generally penetrate more than a 115gr at relative pressures.
When we look at similar bullet contruction (e.g. Speer Gold Dot) over different calibers, however, the bowling pin analogy would indicate that the larger calibers would have more of a "smashing effect" on bone, for lack of a better term.
I know the assumptions made in the much maligned thread "Tales from the Morgue" on the S&W forum have been discussed to the Nth degree, but one relatively objective conclusion I read from the mortician was that the .40 and .45 caliber bullets tended to fracture bone much more than lower calibers. Again, perhaps not only the increase in weight and diameter of the bullet comes into play, but also the small differences in speed... i.e. the slower the bullet, the more force is subjected on the given structure. Small, but significant? I don't know.
So given this, I am openly wondering about the opinions here... to me, because many of the self defense shots will be COM and because the chest is full of bone, do you think that having a bullet with a higher tendancy fracture bone is important? Although we can agree that penetration is critical, to me it would seem that having more fractured bones would "feel" much more debilitating than an additional .05" (maybe) of permanent wound channel.
Just for the record, currently my only handgun is a P7M8 (had to sell a USP .45 to make bills), so I am certainly at the short end of the "capacity vs. caliber" equation.
July 27th, 2006 01:04 PM
sorry to here about the HK
The thing about bones is they can be relatively easy to break (CPR is you don't break a rib your not trying hard enough). I don't even consider bone in my decision for carry ammo it is what I shoot best and operates reliably in my gun thats it. To carry a cartridge that is a bone breaker you will have to carry a rifle or 500 s&w. The chest is full of bones but there is allot of space that isn't also.
July 27th, 2006 01:23 PM
Unless you can sneak a bullet between ribs, yes, a bullet that penetrates bone is mandatory, no question. My qualifications to bore you to death during my post are quite simple: I have been hunting since the age of 12, my mother is a heart surgeon that has done neuro surgery, most surgeries involving the organs including transplants, orthopedics, and picking up on her stories over the years, I have a working knowledge of how bodies are put together and how the vascular system operates and the capabilities of it.
You see, the parts we are trying to damage to stop a threat contains the vitals and the brain. Those, obviously being vital to the health and life of the being, are protected very well against most threats, in the general sense of the word. The heart, lungs, liver are protected by the sternum and a bunch of ribs. The skull is pretty darn hard. You can survive more trauma to the upper torso than you can to the head.
Penetration is critical, as a hole in the heart is essential. But in order to get the penetration we need, our bullet needs to be able to break bone AND penetrate to the vitals without question or hesitation or veering off course (ie smaller calibers and ball ammo).
So our bullet needs to be fired from a cartridge that puts out some horsepower (I'm going to say absolute minimum 9mm/38Spl) in the range of 400fpe. KE does not kill but is the potential to do work. Take the same bullet at two different velocities, let's use 40 S&W and 10mm. The bullet from the 40 S&W is going to be carrying about 350-375fpe or so while the 10mm with that same bullet is going to be carrying over 700fpe (mine has about 728fpe). What this illustrates, all things equal, is that a bullet with more KE has the potential to do more work, ie penetrate and expand.
This isn't meant to be a Praise the 10mm, knock the 40S&W. It was used as an illustration of differences in cartridges. They are the same bullet pushed at different velocities carrying different KE values.
Bullet design has a lot to do with bone busting capabilities. That is why a 45acp can be in the same vicinity of penetration as the 10mm, when the 10mm carried almost twice the KE of the 45acp. Bullet design.
That's all I have for now.
07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006
Probably the only home based FFL that doesn't do transfers.
July 27th, 2006 01:28 PM
Smaller, lighter bullets tend to be deflected by the rounded surfaces of a human skeleton. Unless one hits a flat or large surfaced bone like skull, sternum, pelvis, the bullet will most likely just nick the bone and go off to do damage somewhere else inside. When a bullet does hit bone in such a manner that it won't be deflected, it might breal the bone but lots of energy is expended when doing so. Skulls may be strong, but not thick. Their strength is from the curvature but even a handgun bullet as small as .22 will penetrate due to the concentration of energy.
Higher weight bullets at high velocity (like most rifle bullets) will just keep on going through most bones they encounter.
Hard to get this kind of performance from a handgun of common carrying size. This is why the development efforts for handgun ammo go into making them do the most damage possible for the media they CAN penetrate.
""If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying, I either won't need more or, more won't help me.""
July 27th, 2006 01:50 PM
Having guided for 18(or so) years,I have allot of "gut pile" expierance. I have seen time and again,the effects of high speed projectiles hitting bone. Now this is with the much faster rifle rounds,but to a certin extent it is the same(only different) with a pistol round.
When a bullet going even 1000fps hits bone,it doesn't simply push through it. Even though the "live" bone is simi-soft and plyable,pieces are still broken off. I call these pieces of bone,secondary missles/projectiles. For a small spand of time these secondary projectiles are traveling at the samer speed as the bullet. The pieces of bone are pushed through the body doing a vast ammount of damage.
I have gutted deer and even moose that the heart was reduced to mush by flying ribs,the bullet didn't come anywhere near it. I have seen the pieces(3" long)of deer ribs,10 feet from the fallen deer. This is why I always want to hit the ribs of a game animal going in. The sternum is even better.
This is just the oposite for hunting 'yotes for the pelts. I have ruined the prime pelt of a 55 lb. 'yote when I cut a rib coming out with my Swift. It will blow a hole big enough to stick your fist into.
The pistol bullet velocities will not be that extreme but there will be some extra damage caused by bone fragments.
This is why I want to hit a human on the sternum going in. A little high,a little low,as long as it hits square on the bone,you will get a bonus of secondary missles. Sounds harsh huh ? Well what did we really want to accomplish when we were forced to pull the trigger anyway ??? -------
July 27th, 2006 02:01 PM
I've got to agree with freakshow. The higher velocity, the easier it will be to get through bone. If you're shooting for COM, and you can do it in a high-stress situation (read: BG rushing you with a knife), then it may not matter. For two reasons:
1) Your first shot will probably fracture or at least damage the overall strength of the ribcage. The follow-on shots will have much less trouble penetrating the same area, giving each progressing round the chance to incapacitate.
2) You might be so close to the BG that velocity will matter very little in terms of bone. In situations like this it would be an especially good idea to know your background - even if your are shooting JHPs - because a .40 or 10mm and higher has a better than "crap" chance to over penetrate.
I don't claim to be a pro with this. I'm sure as hell no "expert." This just seems to be the most likely of outcomes.
The Gunsite Blog
ITFT / Quick Kill Review
"It is enough to note, as we have observed, that the American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessential self-defense weapon." - Justice Scalia, SCOTUS - DC v Heller - 26 JUN 2008
July 27th, 2006 02:41 PM
VIP Member (Retired Staff)
Most aspects have been well covered.
I do reckon tho that in the handgun world, momentum of heavier bullets will stand a better chance of bone shattering and as RSSZ mentions - accelerated bone fragments will become secondary projectiles.
One of the most definite features I'd expect from bone impact is bullet deflection - one of the good examples here is a side shot at a perp where humerous ''gets in the way'' and then maybe not even enough direction or energy left to penetrate thorax.
Remember tho - with rib cage - the two inches or so either side of sternum ("rib front ends") are cartilage - and so impact here whether intercostal or direct hits will still penetrate pretty well - matter luck tho whether this happens re shot placement.
Once velocity goes way up as per rifle - whole new ball game, where even big bones like femur can be totally smashed.
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
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July 27th, 2006 05:51 PM
I don't have load data, KE numbers, or anything that may be of value scientifically.
From experience, 9mm FMJ at a range of 6-8 meters has plenty of penetration, but minimal transfer of energy. Fisrt shot entered the abdomen, while the target was moving forward, toward me. Kater ubsoectuib shiwed an exit wound not much larger than the entrance wound. No discernable effect. Second shot hit the chest, on the target's right side, and after later inspection, was found to have penetrated only the skin and soft tissues, following the curve of the chest wall before exiting the flank just below and behind the armpit. Third shot was center mass, just above the bottom of the sternum. Bullet caought the bottom right side of the target's heart, continued through the spine. That caused some immediate problems for him, as he lost all motor control at that point and dropped to the ground. He expired relatively quickly, within 20 -30 seconds, I would guess.
In short, 9mm FMJ has plenty of penetration power, will break bone if it hit's at an almost right angle to the structure, and maintains it's energy enough to break more bone.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin
April 29th, 2015 10:13 PM
Ding ding ding, we have a winner. It's not either or, it's both. No aspect along determines how well a defensive round can do. Unless you aim at the stomach. For 9mm trying a 135 +p might be a good idea. It's not speed or energy that matter at that point in size (unless you've got .357 sig/magnum). Everything is a balance between velocity and weight though. You certainly don't want to over-penetrate, but with hollow points, a lot of rounds UNDER-penetrate. Ballistics gel tests don't mean a whole lot when bone come into the equation. There's a LOT to think about in the end...I'd definitely look into it more with actual police, paramedics, Dr.'s, morticians, etc...
April 30th, 2015 12:17 AM
Welcome to the Forum!
As to winners, this late in the month you have a good chance of winning our (mythical) Lazarus Award for resurrecting a nine year-old thread!
Hopefully you'll keep poking around and find some current topics that will pique your interest. There's a lot of good info here.
NRA Endowment Member
NROI Chief Range Officer
April 30th, 2015 12:30 AM
WOW!!!!!! I started reading at the first post. Read through 5 post before I noticed 2006.
April 30th, 2015 02:35 AM
Back dooring the caliber wars that seem to appear on this forum at least once a month.I don't care what caliber you shoot as long as you hit what you are aiming at.
April 30th, 2015 03:32 AM
The effects of one's defense ammo on bone is important. One needs one's ammo to consistently penetrate bone in order to be reliable.
In addition, one should have a good idea how one's bullet will effect virtually everything, in any environment, one might be shooting in.
Is ammo going to be effective on target after passing through a vehicle window? A vehicle door? A wall? Will the bullet effectively penetrate the target? Will the bullet over-penetrate the target and risk collateral damage? At what ranges and through what mediums will the bullet be effective, over-effective or ineffective?
You might find Shootingthebull410's youtube channel helpful. He tests various defense rounds through various mediums.
In the below he talks about the differences between ballistic gel penetration and body penetration.
April 30th, 2015 04:06 AM
I carry 9mm 147g Ranger, by Winchester. I can not see a rib, or the sternum stopping the projectile.
Live bone is not stick like dry material. The description of the hardball fatality? Sounds like a Military defensive use, a hole in the sternum? Damage to the heart, and right through that big bone, the spine, that kind of answers the question of bone penatration, I would say.
The only military use of the 9mm hardball, was told to me by an ex RUC Constable, during the time of the troubles, involving a patrol, in a large hospital in Belfast.
My Buddy Des, the Constable, was patroling with a member of the SAS, who carried a 9mm Browning HiPower, loaded with Sub Gun Ammo, which Des was carring in his Sterling Sub Machine gun.
They encountered two nurses, running, who told them of two men who had robbed the Post Office (a bank like unit, savings were also kept there) the sound of boots on the tile floor of the passage they were close too, had the soldier ask Des to step back, the Trooper stepped around the corner, fired twice at about 7 yards, Des guessed.
Both rounds hit the hearts of both robbers, went right through, more or less instant death. The autopsy showed same sized hole going in, as coming out.
When you consider the amount of rounds fired in the training the SAS go through, not to surprising of a result. Also some luck involved? No luck for the Boyoes shot though.
An other bit of information, the trooper was in uniform, but his flashes were Para originated. Even to the Red Baret. The SAS did not advertise.
Des was uniformed Security in the 18 floor building I lived in, in Toronto. He spent many a break in my apartment, sat behind a mug of tea! Hense the story telling, went both ways.
April 30th, 2015 07:32 AM
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