5.56/.223 Defense Ammo - Page 2

5.56/.223 Defense Ammo

This is a discussion on 5.56/.223 Defense Ammo within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by sgb Varmit loads are a poor choice for use against Human antagonists, much as is bird shot in shotguns. The 60 gr ...

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Thread: 5.56/.223 Defense Ammo

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array LanceORYGUN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    Varmit loads are a poor choice for use against Human antagonists, much as is bird shot in shotguns.
    The 60 gr VMAX is tougher and will penetrate further than the lighter 35, 40 and 50 gr versions of the bullet in 22 caliber.

    It is a myth that you need deep penetration for civilian self-defense. Ordinary citizens are not law enforcement officers or members of the military. They don't have the same needs when it comes to ammo.

    Its big advantages in an urban settings are: 1) It usually will not exit, and thus endanger others innocent bystanders nearby 2) misses will not ricochet, and again, pose a danger to others 3) misses that hit nearby buildings will not penetrate and endanger the lives of innocent people in that building.

    So the advantages of using such ammo by a civilian acting in self-defense in an urban setting far outweigh the fact that it will not penetrate as deep as law enforcement ammo will.

    Leave the law enforcement ammo to the police.


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  2. #17
    Distinguished Member Array LanceORYGUN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beni View Post
    Thanks. Being new to rifles I don't really know too much about what was meant by 1:7, 1:9, or 1:12 or how it related to bullet weight. But from what I gather so far it seems I could be served well with rounds in the 55 to 75 gr area.
    Beni: These numbers are the rate of twist in the rifling in the barrel of your rifle. 1:7 twist rifling will completely rotate a bullet in 7 inches. 1:12 twist rifling will rotate a bullet every 12 inches. Longer and heavier bullets indeed the smaller and shorter twist rates in order to properly stabilize the bullet. Since the rifle that you say that you are buying has 1:8 inch twist rifling in its barrel, you really should not have to worry much about using too heavy a bullet.

    Tell us, do you live within a city's limits in an urban setting? Or do you live out in the country in a rural setting? Do you have many neighbors living nearby on your street? Do you live in an apartment or a separate house? These are all factors that you should take into consideration when choosing ammo to protect your home.


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  3. #18
    Senior Member Array beni's Avatar
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    I live in a suburban area within a city. I have a townhouse that does not exactly have shared walls (My walls and neighbors walls are separated by a 10-12" gap between the walls).

  4. #19
    sgb
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanceORYGUN View Post
    It is a myth that you need deep penetration for civilian self-defense.
    Pretty bold claim, got anything to back that up?
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

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  5. #20
    Member Array HK Jake's Avatar
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    +1 to the 75gr Hornady TAP.
    "Safety is something that happens between your ears, not something you hold in your hands." - Col. Jeff Cooper

    [EDC: HK P2000 SK .40 S&W]

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array Superhouse 15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    Pretty bold claim, got anything to back that up?

    I'm a paramedic and I know a little about trauma and physiology, and I'm going to side with LanceORYGUN on this one. We use a 3.5" needle to get into the lungs or heart from the front. I have no doubt that a 45 or 50gr varmint HP will change the outcome of a fight in my favor. It might not punch through cover, but it sure will rip a big hole in whatever part of somebody might stick out from around that cover. They're also cheap and shoot good in all my rifles, and the occasional pistol too.
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  7. #22
    sgb
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superhouse 15 View Post
    I'm a paramedic and I know a little about trauma and physiology, and I'm going to side with LanceORYGUN on this one. We use a 3.5" needle to get into the lungs or heart from the front. I have no doubt that a 45 or 50gr varmint HP will change the outcome of a fight in my favor. It might not punch through cover, but it sure will rip a big hole in whatever part of somebody might stick out from around that cover. They're also cheap and shoot good in all my rifles, and the occasional pistol too.
    And I'm former LE, while your anecdotal evidence may make interesting reading it's worthless as to substantiating such a claim.

    Varmint loads are for varmints, bird shot is for birds.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

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  8. #23
    RKM
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    Honestly, I think varmints loads would probably work in most cases, but I'd still avoid it and get a good, heavy defensive round. Again, 75gr TAP :)

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superhouse 15 View Post
    I'm a paramedic and I know a little about trauma and physiology, and I'm going to side with LanceORYGUN on this one. We use a 3.5" needle to get into the lungs or heart from the front. I have no doubt that a 45 or 50gr varmint HP will change the outcome of a fight in my favor. It might not punch through cover, but it sure will rip a big hole in whatever part of somebody might stick out from around that cover.
    '

    Maybe it's because I'm tired, but this post makes no sense to me...
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  10. #25
    Member Array HK Jake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanceORYGUN View Post
    It is a myth that you need deep penetration for civilian self-defense. Ordinary citizens are not law enforcement officers or members of the military. They don't have the same needs when it comes to ammo.

    Leave the law enforcement ammo to the police.
    Is this a serious post?
    "Safety is something that happens between your ears, not something you hold in your hands." - Col. Jeff Cooper

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  11. #26
    Distinguished Member Array LanceORYGUN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    Pretty bold claim, got anything to back that up?

    It is self-evident. Civilians don't engage in the same type of gunfights as police officers. Civilians don't have the same rights and responsibilities as law enforcement. Civilians are much more likely to get personally sued if they accidentally shoot an innocent bystander.

    Civilians can only fire their weapons under much more limited circumstances.

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  12. #27
    Distinguished Member Array LanceORYGUN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HK Jake View Post
    '

    Maybe it's because I'm tired, but this post makes no sense to me...
    Perhaps that is because you have never split an animal's skull wide open with a VMAX bullet.

    I would never recommend using any of the lighter versions for self-defense. But the 60 gr version of the VMAX is heavier and tougher, and has been used by folks to successfully take deer.

    If a person insists on going on the deep penetration route, then I would again recommend using Black Hills ammo, since their stuff is so reliable and very accurate. They also load the 62 gr Barnes TSX bullet in the 223. It is also loaded to a muzzle velocity of 3,100 fps, so it will deliver excellent hydrostatic shock too. And Barnes TSX copper bullets have an outstanding reputation for penetration.

    The Black Hills ammo comes in 50 round boxes. When you calculate the per round cost, it is also much more affordable than the other loads mentioned here, which are sold in 20 round boxes.

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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanceORYGUN View Post
    Perhaps that is because you have never split an animal's skull wide open with a VMAX bullet.

    I would never recommend using any of the lighter versions for self-defense. But the 60 gr version of the VMAX is heavier and tougher, and has been used by folks to successfully take deer.

    If a person insists on going on the deep penetration route, then I would again recommend using Black Hills ammo, since their stuff is so reliable and very accurate. They also load the 62 gr Barnes TSX bullet in the 223. It is also loaded to a muzzle velocity of 3,100 fps, so it will deliver excellent hydrostatic shock too. And Barnes TSX copper bullets have an outstanding reputation for penetration.

    The Black Hills ammo comes in 50 round boxes. When you calculate the per round cost, it is also much more affordable than the other loads mentioned here, which are sold in 20 round boxes.

    .
    No, but I have split an animals skull wide open with a 9mm, but what does that prove?

    "...it will deliver excellent hydrostatic shock, too." Is this why the military complains that their 5.56 loadings which fire at similar velocities aren't stopping people, and they want a bigger round? It's pretty difficult to deliver an unproven theory, especially when this light and fast caliber was made to wound people and kill tiny animals, not kill large game and people. We have scientific standards for a reason, ya know?

    I don't get caught up in the slow and heavy, fast and light debate. I do, however, like to see a 75gr Hornady TAP loading which penetrates to 13.0" and is absolutely devastating to human and animal tissue. Not saying the VMAX bullet is bad, as it isn't, I just prefer the 75gr TAP.
    "Safety is something that happens between your ears, not something you hold in your hands." - Col. Jeff Cooper

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  14. #29
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    Oh well...an assailant, well hit with the very worst of the .223 ammunition marketed, could be said to be having a bad day.
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    Oh well...an assailant, well hit with the very worst of the .223 ammunition marketed, could be said to be having a bad day.
    I think that's all that needs to be said!
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