5.56/.223 Defense Ammo

This is a discussion on 5.56/.223 Defense Ammo within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by LanceORYGUN It is self-evident. Civilians don't engage in the same type of gunfights as police officers. Civilians don't have the same rights ...

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Thread: 5.56/.223 Defense Ammo

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanceORYGUN View Post
    It is self-evident. Civilians don't engage in the same type of gunfights as police officers. Civilians don't have the same rights and responsibilities as law enforcement. Civilians are much more likely to get personally sued if they accidentally shoot an innocent bystander.

    Civilians can only fire their weapons under much more limited circumstances.

    .
    So the only thing you have to support your thesis is conjecture.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    Oh well...an assailant, well hit with the very worst of the .223 ammunition marketed, could be said to be having a bad day.
    A Bad Guy having a bad day can still kill you. The object is to stop the threat, not ruin their day.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

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  4. #33
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    Only one opinion but, at typical self-defense distances, the worst .223 ammunition ought to best most of the popular self defense handgun cartridge offerings constantly discussed here on the Forum.

    Since we're on the subject of stopping the threat we might as well keep a sense of proportion.


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    He don't go in the light of the morning
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  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanceORYGUN View Post
    So the advantages of using such ammo by a civilian acting in self-defense in an urban setting far outweigh the fact that it will not penetrate as deep as law enforcement ammo will.

    Leave the law enforcement ammo to the police.

    .
    In a pod cast I listened to on self defense ammo Massad Ayoob made a statement that I thought was pretty sound advise coming from an experienced LEO, firearms trainer, firearms and self defense expert. To paraphrase what he said on the topic of justifying the use of LEO ammo in a self defense shooting he said "If it is good enough for the police to use, to defend and protect me and my family, than he figures it is good enough for him to use to defend himself and his family." I concur, which is in part why Federal LEO HST is in all my SD handguns. I see no reason to change that philosophy for long guns. When the goblins come a knockin I want the most effective zombie stoppers available.
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  6. #35
    Distinguished Member Array Jason Storm's Avatar
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    Since I buy more amounts of rifle ammunition than and other gun ammo and self-defense ammo in 5.56/.223 is expensive, I simply keep it simple by buying any FMJ ammo in both calibers from PMC, Winchester, Sellier and Benoit (this one from Germany and it's reliable from range shooting), and American Eagle.

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by HK Jake View Post
    +1 to the 75gr Hornady TAP.
    Make that +2. Same here.
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  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    So the only thing you have to support your thesis is conjecture.
    No, it is a plain simple fact. Civilians don't go around chasing people, and shooting at them as they flee, like law enforcement does. Nor do they shoot at people inside automobiles Nor do they shoot at people who have barricaded themselves.

    Civilian self-defense shooting takes place under much more limited circumstances. If you shoot someone outside of those limitations, then you are probably going to be criminally charged.

    .

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    I concur, which is in part why Federal LEO HST is in all my SD handguns. I see no reason to change that philosophy for long guns.
    Well, but he was talking about handgun ammo, not rifle ammo.

    Rifle ammo is much more powerful. It has much greater range, too.


    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    When the goblins come a knockin I want the most effective zombie stoppers available.
    The problem is, though, that there are no zombies or goblins. There are only bad human beings. And they have rights, just like you do. You cannot shoot them with a mindset that they are a zombie, and not human.

    Here is some test footage of the 60 gr Hornady VMAX being fired into soaked newspapers, which is sort of a poor man's gelatin test. The deep, gigantic hole that this bullet produces would be fatal in any solid torso hit.






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  10. #39
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    Here is a video from a hunt where a .24 caliber 75 gr VMAX bullet hits a deer at 400 yards. Just look at the way that this nice buck drops stone dead right where he stood.

    It happens at the 2:55 mark in the video.




    NOTE: The reason why the shot is so very quiet is because the fellow has a suppressor on his AR-15.


    Here is another nice Buck that drops instantly from the 75 gr VMAX, this time at 150 yards. This happens at the 2:10 mark in the video:


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  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanceORYGUN View Post
    No, it is a plain simple fact. Civilians don't go around chasing people, and shooting at them as they flee, like law enforcement does. Nor do they shoot at people inside automobiles Nor do they shoot at people who have barricaded themselves.

    Civilian self-defense shooting takes place under much more limited circumstances. If you shoot someone outside of those limitations, then you are probably going to be criminally charged.

    .
    con·jec·ture/kənˈjekCHər/
    Verb: Form an opinion or supposition about (something) on the basis of incomplete information.
    Sill waiting for you to post something more substantial (like professional documentation) than just your opinion to substantiate your claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by LanceORYGUN View Post

    Here is some test footage of the 60 gr Hornady VMAX being fired into soaked newspapers, which is sort of a poor man's gelatin test. The deep, gigantic hole that this bullet produces would be fatal in any solid torso hit.

    WOW talk about amateur hour ...... soaked newspapers have no correlation to human (or any other living) tissues.


    Quote Originally Posted by LanceORYGUN View Post
    Here is a video from a hunt where a .24 caliber 75 gr VMAX bullet hits a deer at 400 yards. Just look at the way that this nice buck drops stone dead right where he stood.

    It happens at the 2:55 mark in the video.

    YouTube - ‪Suppressed White Tail Hunt 2009 - Reaction of the Deer‬‏


    NOTE: The reason why the shot is so very quiet is because the fellow has a suppressor on his AR-15.


    Here is another nice Buck that drops instantly from the 75 gr VMAX, this time at 150 yards. This happens at the 2:10 mark in the video:

    YouTube - ‪Scottish Roebuck with 243 at 150 yards.Dropped like a stone.‬‏
    A perfectly placed .22lr will do the same thing, it isn't a good choice of self defense ammunition either.

    ETA: Just double checked - the VMAX doesn't come in a .223 75gr and in case you didn't realize the .243wssm isn't a .223 and a standard .243 is a necked down .308 casing ........ what next ?
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

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  12. #41
    Distinguished Member Array LanceORYGUN's Avatar
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    I found another video of hunting Scottish Roebuck with the 75 gr VMAX bullet. However, in that shooting, the deer got shot in its head. The front 3 quarters of the skull was totally blown off by the bullet, and the entire brain was evacuated and removed from the skull by the blast. The video is so extremely graphic and gory in nature, I don't believe that I can post it here.

    If you want to look for it yourself on YouTube, do a search for user sako751SG. He posted both a long range video of the deer being shot at 160 yards, and also a close-up of how the 75 gr VMAX totally destroyed the deer's head.

    The 75 gr VMAX is the heaviest VMAX bullet in 6mm caliber, just as the 60 gr VMAX is the heaviest in .22 caliber. Both are known for being tougher built than the lighter weight VMAX bullets in their respective calibers.


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  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    Sill waiting for you to post something more substantial (like professional documentation) than just your opinion to substantiate your claim.
    Heck, I will make things much easier than that on you. Document for us one SINGLE instance of a civilian shooting a fleeing criminal in self-defense? Document for us one single instance of a civilian shooting someone inside an automobile in self-defense. Document one single instance of a civilian shooting someone in self-defense that was barricaded? If what I am claiming is not true, that should be very easy for you to do.

    But, you know what? You cannot do that, because such shooting simply don't happen. That is a simple fact, no matter what you may claim otherwise.


    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    A perfectly placed .22lr will do the same thing, it isn't a good choice of self defense ammunition either.
    Well, here you are revealing yourself as having no experience at all hunting deer. Anyone with even just limited knowledge of hunting knows that a .22 Long Rifle into the chest of a Deer is going to be a disaster. In both of these hunts, the deer got a good hit in the heart lung area. It is very common for deer hit even ideally like this, to jump and run away for quite some distance. Heck, even if you just had some experience watching deer hunting shows on TV, you would know some basic facts about deer hunting like that.

    However, in both of these shots, the deer did not jump up and run away. And that was because the trauma caused by the VMAX bullet was so extremely devastating.

    To claim that a 22 Long rifle could do the same only serves to reveal your inexperience and total ignorance about deer hunting.


    ETA: Just double checked - the VMAX doesn't come in a .223 75gr
    You are not even paying attention to what I write here, as I already explained that earlier. Go back and re-read my initial post about the 75 gr VMAX again.

    .

  14. #43
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    Heck, I will make things much easier than that on you. Document for us one SINGLE instance of a civilian shooting a fleeing criminal in self-defense? Document for us one single instance of a civilian shooting someone inside an automobile in self-defense. Document one single instance of a civilian shooting someone in self-defense that was barricaded? If what I am claiming is not true, that should be very easy for you to do.

    But, you know what? You cannot do that, because such shooting simply don't happen. That is a simple fact, no matter what you may claim otherwise.
    So, what exactly are we arguing about here? You should use a 60gr bullet rather than a 75gr bullet because of something that wouldn't happen?

    How about shooting from inside a car, out? It definitely wouldn't be the first time.
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  15. #44
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    To answer the original post, number 1 magazine has 75 gr TAP. Number 2 magazine has 69 gr Black Hills OTM. All other mags are loaded with Lake City XM193 55grain.

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  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanceORYGUN View Post
    Heck, I will make things much easier than that on you. Document for us one SINGLE instance of a civilian shooting a fleeing criminal in self-defense?
    No one but you has said anything about shooting fleeing criminals (though I'd love to hear how that ballistically differs from shooting at a charging aggressor).


    Document for us one single instance of a civilian shooting someone inside an automobile in self-defense.
    Man Found Not Guilty In October Jeep Shooting


    Document one single instance of a civilian shooting someone in self-defense that was barricaded? If what I am claiming is not true, that should be very easy for you to do.
    Anderson told a Travis County Grand Jury that he feared for his life and safety of his family when the 15-year old teen and 18-year old Daquin Wilson showed up to his home, so he told his family to hide the back bedroom and opened-up fire, shooting 15 rounds through his closed window and door with 9mm handgun. The Grand Jury decline to file any charges against Anderson.


    But, you know what? You cannot do that, because such shooting simply don't happen. That is a simple fact, no matter what you may claim otherwise.
    ............ Do you need more?


    Well, here you are revealing yourself as having no experience at all hunting deer. Anyone with even just limited knowledge of hunting knows that a .22 Long Rifle into the chest of a Deer is going to be a disaster. In both of these hunts, the deer got a good hit in the heart lung area. It is very common for deer hit even ideally like this, to jump and run away for quite some distance. Heck, even if you just had some experience watching deer hunting shows on TV, you would know some basic facts about deer hunting like that.

    However, in both of these shots, the deer did not jump up and run away. And that was because the trauma caused by the VMAX bullet was so extremely devastating.

    To claim that a 22 Long rifle could do the same only serves to reveal your inexperience and total ignorance about deer hunting.
    Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? ADD acting up?


    You are not even paying attention to what I write here, as I already explained that earlier. Go back and re-read my initial post about the 75 gr VMAX again.

    .
    Oh I'm paying very close attention but all your posting is gibberish.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

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