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5.56/.223 Defense Ammo

30K views 74 replies 22 participants last post by  AZ Hawk 
#1 ·
I don't know to much regarding defensive rounds with rifle calibers. I will be acquiring my first AR in the near future and would like your opinions on what could be used as defense ammo. Is there any ammo that is more effective indoors? How about outdoors? Is a heavier bullet weight recommended?

The rifle I am getting is a M&P 15 Sport
 
#63 ·
I looked at the M&P 15 sport myself, great price for an AR platform, ( $659.00 complete at local gun show). I held off though when I saw it didn't have a "forward bolt assist". I don't know if this would be a "big deal" in civilian use or not. I do know it was a HUGE deal on the original M-16's in Vietnam. When the rifle would get dirty the bolt would not fully close making the weapon inoperable??? Have you shot yours enough that it got really dirty? and did it still function properly? I would like to have one. I don't have a ton of $$$ to spend on a SHTF rifle, so I had been thinking about an AK, but this M&P sport is in the same ballpark. Thoughts or advice ??? :confused:
 
#8 ·
Nothing terribly wrong with basic FMJ for defensive use. Unlike the heavier rounds, 5.56 tends not to overpenetrate people, although sheetrock & stucco walls such as we have here in the desert are a different matter. If cost is an issue - and some of those sexy rounds are nearly a buck a shot - I'd look at the frangible stuff.

Not that I don't take my own advice, but I've got handguns and a shotgun as first-line home defense arms. If things get so bad that I need to turn to the ARs, overpenetration will more likely be a hope rather than a concern.
 
#11 ·
Not that I don't take my own advice, but I've got handguns and a shotgun as first-line home defense arms. If things get so bad that I need to turn to the ARs, overpenetration will more likely be a hope rather than a concern.
This is my HD go to list as well. But if/when I need my AR, I use the M855 (Green Tips).
 
#9 ·
For a while one of my ARs was an old CAR15 with a 1:12 twist barrel so I mostly used 55gr JSP, 50gr HP, or a 55gr poly tipped load of one kind or another. I got rid of that barrel but still have a lot of that ammo stockpiled and I still have confidence in it. A lot of my spare magazines are full of FMJ or alternating FMJ/tracerFMJ/tracer
 
#10 ·
Since the rifle that you are getting has a 1:8 twist barrel, I would not go too light on the bullet weight.

A more fragile bullet would be much better for civilian self-defense in an urban environment. Less chance of missed shots penetrating into nearby homes, better odds the bullet will stay inside the bad guy and not exit and harm anyone nearby.

The Hornady VMAX is well known for its explosive impact that can cause horrific wounds. Black Hills loads the heavy 60 gr VMAX for the 223, and it would thus make a great choice for your rifle's twist. Black Hills ammo is known for its superb accuracy. Muzzle velocity is 3,100 fps, which is going to mean a very high impact velocity out to 200 yards. Certainly at close quarters, it would be absolutely devastating causing massive damage to internal organs.




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#14 ·
Yes, Varmint rounds have little penetration. They'll make a NASTY entry wound though.

I have my AR loaded with 75gr TAP. It's probably the most recognized civilian SD ammo available for the AR platform. Almost any 77gr OTM rounds from Black Hills is also a good choice. And if you must simple 55gr FMJ will do the trick. I'd stay away from light rounds, under 55gr. 55gr FMJ is the minimum I'd go for SD. And stay away from green tip ammo, unless you're expecting a raid of armored criminals. It could happen... Maybe keep some on hand, but I wouldn't keep it as your primary load ;)

The Federal TRU 64gr stuff is nice as well, from what I read and see on the internet.

For self defense purposes, ignore barrel twist, as you won't be defending yourself from any further than 100 yards, hopefully. If you are, I'd rather just have a 7.62 rifle. People blow the whole heavy 75-77gr bullets in slow twisting barrels out of proportion. 1:9 will stabilize one just fine. If you're going for accuracy at very long distance, then yes, you want a heavy bullet with a 1:7 twist, but for SD, you can shoot your 77gr rounds out of an old 1:12 twist barrel all you want. Try that at 100 yards, you may have some ugly holes in the target... or not on the target. You may hit the target of the guy sitting on the bench next to you. I have no problems at 100 yards with 75gr TAP in my 1:9.
 
#15 ·
For self defense purposes, ignore barrel twist, as you won't be defending yourself from any further than 100 yards, hopefully. If you are, I'd rather just have a 7.62 rifle. People blow the whole heavy 75-77gr bullets in slow twisting barrels out of proportion. 1:9 will stabilize one just fine. If you're going for accuracy at very long distance, then yes, you want a heavy bullet with a 1:7 twist, but for SD, you can shoot your 77gr rounds out of an old 1:12 twist barrel all you want. Try that at 100 yards, you may have some ugly holes in the target... or not on the target. You may hit the target of the guy sitting on the bench next to you. I have no problems at 100 yards with 75gr TAP in my 1:9.
Thanks. Being new to rifles I don't really know too much about what was meant by 1:7, 1:9, or 1:12 or how it related to bullet weight. But from what I gather so far it seems I could be served well with rounds in the 55 to 75 gr area.
 
#29 ·
Oh well...an assailant, well hit with the very worst of the .223 ammunition marketed, could be said to be having a bad day.
 
#33 ·
Only one opinion but, at typical self-defense distances, the worst .223 ammunition ought to best most of the popular self defense handgun cartridge offerings constantly discussed here on the Forum.

Since we're on the subject of stopping the threat we might as well keep a sense of proportion.


"Did you hear about the Midnight Rambler?
Everybody got to go
Did you heard about the Midnight Rambler,
the one that shut the kitchen door?

He don't give a hoot of warning
wrapped up in a black cat cloak
He don't go in the light of the morning
He's split, the time the cockerel crows."
 
#35 ·
Since I buy more amounts of rifle ammunition than and other gun ammo and self-defense ammo in 5.56/.223 is expensive, I simply keep it simple by buying any FMJ ammo in both calibers from PMC, Winchester, Sellier and Benoit (this one from Germany and it's reliable from range shooting), and American Eagle.
 
#39 ·
Here is a video from a hunt where a .24 caliber 75 gr VMAX bullet hits a deer at 400 yards. Just look at the way that this nice buck drops stone dead right where he stood.

It happens at the 2:55 mark in the video.




NOTE: The reason why the shot is so very quiet is because the fellow has a suppressor on his AR-15.


Here is another nice Buck that drops instantly from the 75 gr VMAX, this time at 150 yards. This happens at the 2:10 mark in the video:


.
 
#41 ·
I found another video of hunting Scottish Roebuck with the 75 gr VMAX bullet. However, in that shooting, the deer got shot in its head. The front 3 quarters of the skull was totally blown off by the bullet, and the entire brain was evacuated and removed from the skull by the blast. The video is so extremely graphic and gory in nature, I don't believe that I can post it here.

If you want to look for it yourself on YouTube, do a search for user sako751SG. He posted both a long range video of the deer being shot at 160 yards, and also a close-up of how the 75 gr VMAX totally destroyed the deer's head.

The 75 gr VMAX is the heaviest VMAX bullet in 6mm caliber, just as the 60 gr VMAX is the heaviest in .22 caliber. Both are known for being tougher built than the lighter weight VMAX bullets in their respective calibers.


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#43 ·
Heck, I will make things much easier than that on you. Document for us one SINGLE instance of a civilian shooting a fleeing criminal in self-defense? Document for us one single instance of a civilian shooting someone inside an automobile in self-defense. Document one single instance of a civilian shooting someone in self-defense that was barricaded? If what I am claiming is not true, that should be very easy for you to do.

But, you know what? You cannot do that, because such shooting simply don't happen. That is a simple fact, no matter what you may claim otherwise.
So, what exactly are we arguing about here? You should use a 60gr bullet rather than a 75gr bullet because of something that wouldn't happen?

How about shooting from inside a car, out? It definitely wouldn't be the first time.
 
#44 ·
To answer the original post, number 1 magazine has 75 gr TAP. Number 2 magazine has 69 gr Black Hills OTM. All other mags are loaded with Lake City XM193 55grain.

Sent from my ZTF Com1 Device using Tapatalk.
 
#46 ·
I'm too new to ARs to comment on THE best self defense round, but that V-MAX bullet sure appears to do the job. That deer just crumpled. And like I said in another thread, when it comes to shooting woodchucks I'll grab my .17 HMR loaded with V-MAX bullets over my .22 WMR loaded with heavier hollowpoints. I think it's a great bullet design. I'm not saying it is better than those TAP loads, but it certainly seems like a viable option.
 
#50 ·
You speak of internet bravado, then direct me to view information on four websites? Does this seem ironic to anyone but me? lol ;^)

I was having a hard time getting to any real information on three of those websites. Information that also included a V-MAX type bullet, which is what we are talking about here. I did however find three photos showing what looked like X-Ray type pictures showing three wound channels. And that was an apple to apple comparison. Not in gel, but actual wounds.
Here is the page I am talking about Wound Ballistics, Ballistic Injury, Stopping Power, Gunshot Wounds If you scroll down to Rifle you can click on three cartridges in .223. I'm guessing the first is as close as I can find to the V-MAX, a 50 gr jacketed soft point. It appears to be every bit as effective as the next two NATO rounds in 55 gr and 62 gr., just without as much penetration. And I believe when Lance mentioned the V-MAX he said 60 gr. Again, it doesn't have the penetration, but as was mentioned earlier here, it only takes 3.5 inches to reach the heart. 13" is what is shown and isn't 13" what the FBI says is good penetration? I was watching a show the other night and they were putting .380 rounds through walls and car doors. How much pentration does one need? There is such a thing as over penetration. Especially for us civilian types.

Anyway, I still say it looks like a viable SD round and doesn't cost an arm and a leg. You can actually stock up on this round and practice with it. Unless I am missing something here as to why it isn't a good round.
 
#53 ·
You speak of internet bravado, then direct me to view information on four websites? Does this seem ironic to anyone but me? lol ;^)
Do you understand what bravado is? Here allow me:

Definition of BRAVADO
1
a : blustering swaggering conduct b : a pretense of bravery
2
: the quality or state of being foolhardy

Everything I've posted I've provided relevant information in support of my opinion.


I was having a hard time getting to any real information on three of those websites. Information that also included a V-MAX type bullet, which is what we are talking about here.
You're upset because I didn't link you enough information? Ever heard of Google?

I did however find three photos showing what looked like X-Ray type pictures showing three wound channels. And that was an apple to apple comparison. Not in gel, but actual wounds.
Here is the page I am talking about Wound Ballistics, Ballistic Injury, Stopping Power, Gunshot Wounds If you scroll down to Rifle you can click on three cartridges in .223. I'm guessing the first is as close as I can find to the V-MAX, a 50 gr jacketed soft point. It appears to be every bit as effective as the next two NATO rounds in 55 gr and 62 gr., just without as much penetration.
The VMAX in .223 is a thinly jacketed bullet designed for extreme long range accuracy and explosive expansion/fragmentation for use against varmints. You can't substitute the performance of a .223 50 gr JSP, 5.56 M193 & M855 ball in comparison to any of the .223 VMAX bullets.

And I believe when Lance mentioned the V-MAX he said 60 gr.
He did, then he posts video of dear taken with .243 Winchester & .243 Winchester short magnum 75gr VMAX loads. Different calibers with heavier bullets meant for larger animals. Further these rounds where used at the distances they were intended for, at shorter ranges and higher velocities these type of bullets typically exhibit greater explosive expansion and less penetration.

Again, it doesn't have the penetration, but as was mentioned earlier here, it only takes 3.5 inches to reach the heart. 13" is what is shown and isn't 13" what the FBI says is good penetration?
It only takes 3-3.5" to reach the heart if it's a straight on level 90 degree shot. How far to reach the heart if you're on the ground and have to angle the round up from the bottom of the rib cage? 9-11" maybe? How about a shot that has to angle through 4-5" inches of the forearm flesh and bone that's holding the gun that's being fired at you before it then has to penetrate that 3.5" of chest to reach the heart? What about the round that has to punch through your sofa that the armed burglar is foolishly using as cover does that add to the level of penetration needed in considering your choice of self defense ammunition?


I was watching a show the other night and they were putting .380 rounds through walls and car doors. How much pentration does one need? There is such a thing as over penetration. Especially for us civilian types.
Any ammunition suitable for self defense use is going to present over penetration issues, there are no magic bullets. Penetration is the most important factor, you much reach the vital organs to cause sufficient blood loss to incapacitate an aggressor.


Anyway, I still say it looks like a viable SD round and doesn't cost an arm and a leg. You can actually stock up on this round and practice with it. Unless I am missing something here as to why it isn't a good round.
We all live and die by the choices we make. I wish you the best.
 
#59 ·
Verifiable data? Of what? Of one bullet's performance in "a consistent medium" as compared to another bullet's performance in "a consistent medium?" And we're suppose to accept these tests at face value and deem them as meaningful? It's a given that neither deer nor human assailants will behave in a consistent fashion, even with similar hits and with using bullets that give similar expansion characteristics, so relative stopping power performance predictions based on one's favorite test data are pretty much useless.

Of course they have to have something in which to test all the bullets. It may as well be "a consistent medium" since civilized societies can't go about shooting large groups of human test subjects in order to ascertain bullet performance.

On a separate topic:


"Never heard of a deer high on meth/alcohol or crack participating in a gunfight."


Here's a couple of personal hunting experiences that illustrates the tenacity of deer. No, deer don't drink and drug up or shoot back, but they can cling to life pretty energetically for fleeting seconds, not going "down for the count" or giving much indication at all of being stopped.

1. A whitetail buck was taken at a bit over 100 yards with a Winchester Model 1873 .38-40 (actual bullet diameter is .401). Ammunition used was a pre-WWII Winchester factory 180 grain jacketed soft point actually chronographed to give an average velocity of 1345 fps from the rifle used. At 100 yards the bullet likely had no more than 1050-1100 fps remaining velocity. The buck deer was standing angling away so that the bullet struck the back left rib, passed through the center of the heart cutting a simple .40 hole, and exited through the front of the right shoulder again leaving a .40 hole. No observable expansion was indicated by the wound. The deer struggled 30-40 yards to a fence and fell, rolled up underneath it, kicked weakly up at the barbed wire a couple of times and expired.

2. A whitetail buck facing from 90 steps was struck full in the chest with a handloaded 165 grain Sierra boat tail spitzer fired at 2895 fps from a Winchester Model 70 .30-06. The heart was completely destroyed, the right lung hashed, both the right front shoulder and the right rear leg damaged from the fragmented bullet. Despite the shattering destruction done by the bullet this deer ran a couple hundred yards down into and along a deep ravine to pile up in thick brush, giving a merry old time trailing to locate. Upon finding the deer it was discovered that the left front leg was missing from the knee joint down due to some old injury.

This is Texas and neither deer probably weighed as much as 100 lbs. on the hoof. Based solely on these two examples the false conclusion could be drawn that the plodding old .38-40 is a superior deer cartridge to the high-powered .30-06. After all, it put the buck down soonest of the two examples. What it does indicate is that if results can vary so wildly when two such dissimilar cartridges are used, even with one being quite a high-powered rifle, then one simply cannot expect to read much at all into ballistics tests that are so bally-hooed.

By the way. That's a clever cartoon of a man and an ostrich sticking their heads into "a consistent medium."
 
#60 ·
Shooting deer and shooting people in self defense are two completely different subjects, one would note that deer don't shoot back. People on drugs which make up a large percentage of offenders involved in violent crime do. Further the topic is about the 5.56/.223 defensive ammunition not your favorite deer load.

I'd also add that anecdotal evidence is worth zero, anecdotal evidence on the internet is worth less than zero. Ignoring self defense shooting dynamics as well as the ballistic data gathered by the professional community gathered through the collection of ballistic gelatin testing and the study of gunshot wounds is effectively the same as burying your head in the sand. Your head your choice.
 
#62 ·
Mornin' sgb;

You're missing the point here. The observations gleaned through shooting game are a poor indicator of the relative terminal ballistic performance of cartridges/projectiles and their stopping effectiveness however they are a very good indicator of the undeniable fact that living organisms absolutely do not behave to any measurable standard that may be derived from any controlled ballistics tests conducted on any sort of inanimate matter. Such tests, by their artificial nature, are poor indicators of actual results on living organisms. And yes, conclusions may be drawn about .223 defensive ammunition performance by observation of the performance of various "favorite deer loads." That single valid conclusion has to be that both game and, one assumes human assailants, frequently don't cooperate by conveniently "stopping" despite the optimum selection and shot placement of the cartridge/bullet with the best perceived terminal ballistics as derived in some sort of artificial test medium. It follows that all such tests must be taken with a grain of salt by the thoughtful person.

The very fact that you hold these ballistic tests so close to your heart and cling to your "verifiable data" derived from your "consistent test medium" indicates that you don't get out much. It doesn't make you appear to be particularly savvy to be able to use Google to find and "cut-'n-paste" links to tests. Instead it appears to be excessive dithering over trivialities. The "wide" differences in factory .223 ammunition styles exists mostly in the minds of vacillators extraordinaire. Most discussion of self-defense cartridge performance arises from a combination of dithering by unlearned folks who are insecure with both their shooting abilities and their ammunition choices coupled with the pontificating by other unlearned folks who believe excessively in the fairy tales found within ammo makers' advertising copy along with those found within purported ballistics tests deluging the internet. If the discussion is entertaining then go ahead and enjoy it but don't fool yourself into thinking that you're obtaining some sort of advanced education in terminal ballistics by consuming such discussion.

If a person will make an ammo selection that is certain to have adequate penetration and then concentrate his efforts on placing it as accurately as possible then he's done his best to provide for effective personal self-defense.

And if this post isn't pontificating then I don't know what is!
 
#70 ·
Mornin' sgb;

You're missing the point here.
Would appear I'm not the only one.

The observations gleaned through shooting game are a poor indicator of the relative terminal ballistic performance of cartridges/projectiles and their stopping effectiveness however they are a very good indicator of the undeniable fact that living organisms absolutely do not behave to any measurable standard that may be derived from any controlled ballistics tests conducted on any sort of inanimate matter.Such tests, by their artificial nature, are poor indicators of actual results on living organisms. And yes, conclusions may be drawn about .223 defensive ammunition performance by observation of the performance of various "favorite deer loads."
I don't disagree that "living organisms absolutely do not behave to any measurable standard that may be derived from any controlled ballistics tests conducted on any sort of inanimate matter" and never claimed such. I have pointed out that humans aren't deer (hunting) and comparing deer to violent individuals (self defense) that are often under the influence of drugs/alcohol is a faulty comparison. I also disagree that comparing different calibers , bullet weights and bullet construction in anecdotal incidents to be a valid form of reaching a quality conclusion.

That single valid conclusion has to be that both game and, one assumes human assailants, frequently don't cooperate by conveniently "stopping" despite the optimum selection and shot placement of the cartridge/bullet with the best perceived terminal ballistics as derived in some sort of artificial test medium. It follows that all such tests must be taken with a grain of salt by the thoughtful person.
While I agree with the basic premise of this statement I don't agree with the path you've taken to reach the conclusion. And once again I never stated that ballistic gelatin in any way predicts how anything living will react to being struck by a bullet, it's simply a consistent median that closely simulates human tissues that allows for accurate comparison of bullet performance. That information when compared to actual wound ballistics (on PEOPLE) allows prediction of which bullets will give acceptable performance under the current standards.

The very fact that you hold these ballistic tests so close to your heart and cling to your "verifiable data" derived from your "consistent test medium" indicates that you don't get out much. It doesn't make you appear to be particularly savvy to be able to use Google to find and "cut-'n-paste" links to tests. Instead it appears to be excessive dithering over trivialities. The "wide" differences in factory .223 ammunition styles exists mostly in the minds of vacillators extraordinaire. Most discussion of self-defense cartridge performance arises from a combination of dithering by unlearned folks who are insecure with both their shooting abilities and their ammunition choices coupled with the pontificating by other unlearned folks who believe excessively in the fairy tales found within ammo makers' advertising copy along with those found within purported ballistics tests deluging the internet. If the discussion is entertaining then go ahead and enjoy it but don't fool yourself into thinking that you're obtaining some sort of advanced education in terminal ballistics by consuming such discussion.
And here you go from intelligent discussion to personally attacking an individual who disagrees with you. It's a week tactic usually deployed when unable to factually support a position. Intelligent discussion challenges the information under discussion, juvenile discussion challenges the character of the provider of the information.

But just to show you how wrong you can be..... I grew up in Michigan hunting, I've taken all manner of small game, water fowl and Deer with both gun and bow. My last Buck taken in Michigan was with a .45acp HG68 200gr hard cast LSWC out of a Colt Gold Cup at a distance of 7 yards. Bullet went straight through and the buck didn't stagger 10 feet.

I've served in the Marines, been a Michigan LEO, took a Bullet through the hips in 1991 and am both a NRA and State of Florida Licensed Firearms instructor.

Seems your internet crystal ball failed you again my friend.


If a person will make an ammo selection that is certain to have adequate penetration and then concentrate his efforts on placing it as accurately as possible then he's done his best to provide for effective personal self-defense.
I agree 100%, however nothing yet presented indicates that use of light weight .223 cal varmint rounds using bullets like the VMAX will consistently accomplish that penetration.

And if this post isn't pontificating then I don't know what is!
:yup:
 
#64 ·
Hi Stubborn;

I've owned a Colt SP-1 since the late 1980s. It's been used for lots of entertaining plinking, some bench rest fun and handload development, and has been used by the whole family for high-power competition on the local level. It's been shot a lot and its lack of forward bolt assist has never been missed.

I used to use Dri-Slide for lubrication on my AR 15 and occasionally after several hundred rounds were fired the rifle could get balky. I don't recall that any malfunctions made me long for a forward bolt assist though.

I've never used an AR 15 with forward bolt assist to fully close a bolt that failed to close but have some reservations about forcing the issue with a contrary round. I'd be more likely to just pull the charge handle back, removing that cartridge, and try again with the next one up. I'm old-fashioned though and someone else may have other ideas about the expediency of forward bolt assist.


Don't keep up with all the AR 15 clones and their prices but $659 sounds like a deal to me. Was it completely factory original or could it have been a "built" rifle?
 
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