An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

This is a discussion on An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Well I got bored and read some of this. It was interesting, so to speak, right up to the .33 second draw and hitting the ...

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  1. #136
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    Well I got bored and read some of this. It was interesting, so to speak, right up to the .33 second draw and hitting the target with a Mak copy or whatever.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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  3. #137
    Member Array PeterCartwright's Avatar
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    Late to the party. Just read the original post. Thanks to the author for compiling all the data AND thanks for offering bucket loads of common sense! My take away: Stop looking for magic solutions and learn to shoot the tools you have....Kinda sounds like advice your dad would have given you, huh! Thanks again!

    PC

  4. #138
    Member Array Tayopo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peyton View Post
    Here is something I think people should know. It really is not an opinion either, it is result and conclusion from my experience which I incorporated in my training programs for others. For 23 years now there has not been one exception either, anyone who does the scenario based drill discovers this truth.It does not matter what they thought before either or how strongly either.

    Here is something I think people I think people should know. It really is not an opinion either, it is the result and conclusion from my experience which I incorporated in my training programs for others for 23 years now. Understand please that everyone I have run through the drill ,and there are no exceptions at all, discovers this truth for themselves. That truth is when somebody is trying to kill you (or your brain tells you they are and it’s the same thing) then you cannot use the sight of the pistol. You will not be able to look at anything but the person about to kill you. You won’t ‘know’ the pistol has sights on it, it wont and can’t even occur to you.

    My late friend Jim Cirrillo talked about this fact many times over the years. He had been in more than dozen gunfights and I can’t remember off hand how many felons he killed with a handgun as stake out detective in NYC in the mid sixties. Now Jim had been in so many gunfights he almost ‘got used to it’. He was the only exception I ever met to the ‘can’t use sights at all in the real deal’ too. And he acknowledged that he did not sue the sights in most every gunfight he was in anyway. The point is’ learn to point shoo’t as it is all you will have in the real deal and all you will need. Not you and not I will evr have Jim’s experience and arrive to the mental level he did about a deadly gunfight. That is just not going to happen period.

    In my classes even some people who have never fired handgun before, or any gun in 20 minutes can learn to hit a 6 inch circle, at 25 feet in very low light. Light so low they could not see the sights anyway. After more drills and work they can do this same thing on moving living attacking human being in the scenarios under that stress level. This is the ‘missing link’ too in most all firearms training I have seen (exception being my Israeli training years ago), target shooting skills mean nothing in the real deal. Trigger pull, breath control, stance all that stuff is totally irrelevant to using handgun for self-defense Changing magazines quickly is a skill that will almost never come up so it not relevant really either.
    You can’t fix something until you know what ‘does not work’ and why. Under adrenal stress, which is the only thing you can count on when your life is directly on the line, none of the things most people practice at the ‘range’ to prepare themselves for that event have not much if any relevance at all to actual shooting another human being trying to kill you before he can kill you.
    Aimed fire is a skill you need too and here is why. If the guy is shooting or in the case I am thinking on at the moment, stabbing people at random, AND he is not directly attacking you yet, THEN you can and you should use the sights to kill him so as to avoid hitting innocents.
    But when your life is immediately on the line your brain (amygdala won’t allow you to look at anything but the guy about to kill you and with both eyes wide open so you must learn to shoot like that and it’s called ‘point shooting’. People re-invent the wheel ery few deacdes and call it other stuff to make it seem ‘new’ and ‘innovative’ but it means not using the sights of the gun.

    Most shooting occur at night in low light and at very closer range, like 5 or 6 feet or less. Please think on these relates in preparing to defend your life or oyur loved ones. It’s not a ‘sport’ it’s not a ‘game’ of any kind. It is just a horrible experience in every way to shoot another human being. It is just tragically necessary sometimes though.
    Peytion, I can't agree with you more

    Don Jose de la Mancha

    "I exist to Live, not live to exist"
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  5. #139
    Member Array Tayopo's Avatar
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    Good morning Ladies & gentlemen: AZ hawk posted --> So what you are saying is that you can react, draw, aim and fire in 0.33 seconds...?

    In all honesty, you never really held any credibility, but now you're just being ridiculous.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Also tacman 605 posted --> It was interesting, so to speak, right up to the .33 second draw and hitting the target with a Mak copy or whatever
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Gentlemen, I can consistantly hit a sil target at 12 ft with me initiating the draw in those ranges. This is with an open top Border Patrol holster and my model 28 .357 with a 4" barrel, and keith long range front sights. so where is the reason for disbelief ?

    A simple trick we used to use to keep in trim without shooting, was to place a coin on the back of our outstretched hand, shoulder height, standing in front of a waist high table, facing a mirror, then simply dropping our hand, drawing, and catching the coin on the barrel of the pistol while checking the alignment of the pistol in our reflection before the coin hit the table.

    One had to be sure they were not giving a slight upwards toss of the coin, just dropping it.

    Frankly I find Peyton's posts very reliable and accurate, and in complete agreement with my personal experiences.. I give him *****

    Don Jose de La Mancha

    "I exist to Live, not live to exist"

    P.S. We also we worked on long range pistol work, a hit on a human was quite feasable to 400 meters.

  6. #140
    Senior Member Array Bullet1234's Avatar
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    Shot placement is the most important factor ,,,,, NO MAGIC BULLET,,,,,
    plus remembering the old saying ,,,,, anyone worth shooting ,,,, is worth shooting twice
    this proves the statement.
    “A few elitists shouldn't rule the many. ”
    Better to have a 380 in your pocket than a 45 at HOME.
    When seconds count, police are minutes away.

  7. #141
    Member Array Tayopo's Avatar
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    Morning Az hawk: I just gave you a thumbs up even though your post has many flaws, The lil thingie called final, actual 'delivered energy' is the key factor. i know what you had in mind, but failed to clarify it for some of the readers
    Peyton is also correct

    Don Jose de La mancha

    "I exist to live, not live to exist"
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  8. #142
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    G'morning shall we go to the patio to drink some coffee with 10, peyton, & Az. to discuss Quick draw and reaction times?

    May I suggest that eveyone interested in speed in firing, drawing from different holsters, and accurate pistol work for close in and up to 600 meters get a copy of Ed McGivern's
    "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting.

    In there you will find 'certified' photos of 2/5 th second draws, 5 shots in 2/5 ths of a sec , with all hits inside a playing card, as well as shooting through thrown washers and to 600 meters.

    One might say it is the definitive bible of pistol shooting. Available at Amazon and other bookstores.

    Also check on him at --> Ed McGivern - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Also pick up a copy of Bill Jordans "No second Place winner".

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    and of course, Elmer keith's books.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    There are several others, but if you learn what these gentlemen can teach you, you will be a "Pistol shot'.

    ****************************************

    I was fortunate in that these three in Particular, were instrumental in being my mentors while I was in the Border Patrol. They coached me physically, mentally and via that old fashioned method of cummunication, "Letters".

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to Live, not live to exist"

    .fastdraw.jpg
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  9. #143
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    I see that a lot of people have an opinion on this subject. I have these observations:
    1 There are dozens of handgun cartridge sizes and types. Does this mean there is more than one use for handguns? I think so.
    2 There are hundreds of handgun models. Again, does this mean there is more than one use?
    You must carefully evaluate the user’s purpose and capabilities to make a wise choice of handgun. A civilian who won’t carry a heavy handgun and is unlikely to ever use it outside of the firing range is better served with a 22LR compact if he/she will carry it. It will handle most self-defense situations a civilian is likely to encounter and is far better than nothing.
    I regularly practice with my Sig P232 .380 Auto. I can reliably hit head and torso at 30 feet. At 60 feet it is spray and pray. It will stop most human attackers as well larger calibers (see “An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power” posted by Greg Ellifritz). I carry it in my car, but not on my person because it is too heavy for me to conceal. Would a lighter .380 work? Possibly, but buying another handgun which might or might not work better for me dissuades me.
    I also regularly practice with my HK USP .45 auto. I can reliably hit head and torso at 60 feet. The longer barrel makes all the difference at distance. The larger caliber would probably be a disadvantage at close range because it is heavy and slows my response. I had an HK USP .40 that worked much better for me. The grip was smaller and the weight was lower. I regret having traded it for the .45. A young strong Navy SEAL could wield the .45 with quick deadly effect. I can’t see him choosing anything less.
    None of these pistols helps me if I am facing and adversary with a 22 rifle at 50 yards. With a little practice the shooter could put a bullet in your eye. The job to be done with the resources available dictates the choice of tools, actions, and risks. You need an arsenal to cover all possible situations. . If I was preparing for a fight I would choose, the .40 and a rifle. The .380 auto would go in my pocket. If I am carrying concealed I would choose only the .380 auto.

  10. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    Nice read, however unsubstantiated statistics with no baseline for comparison make it just that, an interesting read. Nothing I'd put any weight in.
    I agree with sgb. After reading the study, I find it to be an interesting read.

    Perhaps it's real value is that it resulted in many opinions and caused many here to (re?)consider their position.
    My favorite "gun" book-

    QUANTITATIVE AMMUNITION SELECTION

  11. #145
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    Well, looks to me like all handguns should be considered back ups. Back ups to your rifle or shotgun.

  12. #146
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    I agree about real estate. All 32 gr (.22lr) fired from a short barrel will penetrate about 8 inches. Pass right through me, slap holes in both sides of my lungs and collapse them. Same result. Massive damage. Shoot what you carry and do it well.

  13. #147
    Senior Member Array theskunk's Avatar
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    Ok Ok ..... My first choice is my 308 FN FAL rifle. But in reality it's the biggest pistol that you 'Will' carry. I live in Florida and mostly wear cargo shorts, and carry a pocket pistol. Dependability is my #1 factor.

    My particular situation would be self defense. I find the 32 Seecamp, or my 232 Sig, to be adequate.

  14. #148
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    Very good post. I like how you used real world statistic throughout your study, and how, if you look at the stats the bullets are not the determining factor.
    Si vis pacem, para bellum

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    Hello friends!

    So I am new here but an utterly facinated by the points of view and interesting facts associated with the events being discussed. I think it was mentioned but more than round size/velocity I think the real variables here are as follows:

    1. The individual : A massive burly man may take a .45 to the chest and continue to keep coming, depending on his sympathetic nervous system status. Remember the stories of perpitrators high on cocaine getting shot several times and continuing to attack police officers. Ephinephrine can have almost the same effect, imagine how mothers life 2500 lb. Cars off thier children because their child is in trouble. Factors like mind status, epinephrine levels, pain coping mechanisms are really what makes the target more inclined to be able to continue action, or halt action after the shot.

    2. The Area Hit : A .22 to the arm may seem less likely to stop an assailiant with his epinephrine goin than say a .45 ACP to the stomach or chest. A shot directly to the knee will most likely bring the individual down no matter the round/velocity/individual. A shot to the skull would have similar effects.

    3. Mindset/Action of the Individual at time of impact : If a poin dexter was sitting in a chair and was hit in the arm with a small calibur round he will most likely act similar or proportional to a larger individual with a larger round. If his sympathetic nervous system is running it may effect him less. If someone is caught un-aware they are more likely to expierence a fe moments of shock or disbelief, this causing them to significantly find trouble reacting to the shot.

    To me more than anything else these are the variables that are more important than any size of round or velocity.

  16. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKM View Post
    I tend to agree. In most circumstances, even a .22 will probably work.

    In his statistics, he shows that .32 has better results than a .45 but look at how many people were shot with .45 compared to .32... 209 vs. 25. For instance, you could have 5 people hit with .32 and 4 of the people died or were immediately incapacitated. That's 80%. You could have 586 people hit with .45 but 425 died or immediately incapacitated. That's 73%. Does that mean .32 is superior? No, it just means .45 has a higher failure rate (if that's what you want to call it) because it's used more often. But it also shows .22 has better results than 9mm. I'd say that 9mm is certainly superior, to .22 despite his statistics. Heck you could have 2 failure to stops in 2 shots with .308 (yes, .308, not a typo), that's 0% stoppage and then 2 successful hits out of 3 with .25ACP (about 67%). Would that mean sniper's should have rifles chambered in .25ACP? Of course my "statisics" are not real, but ANYTHING can happen. It's all subjective, really.

    I'm certainly not trying to talk down on his research, just throwing my opinion into the mix. I find his research and dedication to be pretty impressive. I defiantly agree with him.... caliber doesn't REALLY matter.... We've all heard it 895347634586450869 times.... shot placement!

    I still agree with Ayoob saying, carry the biggest caliber you can. Then, IMO, find the best (in your opinion of course) carry ammo, whether is be a fancy JHP or even FMJ.
    If you read the whole thing the guy states that he didn't have enough info on specific calibers.

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