An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

This is a discussion on An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I just took a federal inmate in the custody of the USMS to a clinic to have a bullet removed from his leg. The entrance ...

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  1. #166
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I just took a federal inmate in the custody of the USMS to a clinic to have a bullet removed from his leg. The entrance wound, which was above the knee cap had healed. But the bullet was working its way out of the back.

    Two Docs were attending. One was a cute little sadistic blond female. While the other Doc went to get something to numb the area with, she got down behind the thug, who was standing, looked at me and smiled, and said she thought she could squeeze it right out. She stuck her " gloved" fingers in the hole in the back of his leg and began digging at it. The thug was wincing in pain, and she told him to act like the man he thought he was when he was getting shot! ( I almost fell in love at that point). But she tore it right out before the other doc got back.

    She let me examine it, before puting it in an evidence container, and it was the seperated jacket from a 40 caliber bullet. Just the jacket, fully expanded, the lead was completely gone.

    While this was not really in line with the thread, I wanted to share it, because it was interesting, and the thug getting the " treatment" made my day.

    But back on topic, I have never agreed with the notion and popular jargon that handgun rounds are poor stoppers. I believe that anything 38 spl or above is very,very good, as long as the shooter puts them in the boiler room.
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  3. #167
    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I just took a federal inmate in the custody of the USMS to a clinic to have a bullet removed from his leg. The entrance wound, which was above the knee cap had healed. But the bullet was working its way out of the back.

    Two Docs were attending. One was a cute little sadistic blond female. While the other Doc went to get something to numb the area with, she got down behind the thug, who was standing, looked at me and smiled, and said she thought she could squeeze it right out. She stuck her " gloved" fingers in the hole in the back of his leg and began digging at it. The thug was wincing in pain, and she told him to act like the man he thought he was when he was getting shot! ( I almost fell in love at that point). But she tore it right out before the other doc got back.

    She let me examine it, before puting it in an evidence container, and it was the seperated jacket from a 40 caliber bullet. Just the jacket, fully expanded, the lead was completely gone.

    While this was not really in line with the thread, I wanted to share it, because it was interesting, and the thug getting the " treatment" made my day.

    But back on topic, I have never agreed with the notion and popular jargon that handgun rounds are poor stoppers. I believe that anything 38 spl or above is very,very good, as long as the shooter puts them in the boiler room.
    What's that old saying?

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  4. #168
    VIP Member Array ghost tracker's Avatar
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    Only hits count. Center-mass hits count more than perimeter hits. BIG center-mass hits count more than little center-mass hits. These are The LAWS of Physics we're talking about here, these are NOT suggestions or theory. To doubt these tenants is like doubting gravity. You may have a contrasting opinion, but you STILL can't escape the effects of gravity or the effects of...center mass hits from BIG bullets.
    There are only TWO kinds of people in this world; those who describe the world as filled with two kinds of people...and those who don't.

  5. #169
    Senior Member Array daffyduc's Avatar
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    Very good read. I carry a 9mm with a .25acp backup. I was considering an upgrade to .40 s&w. Might just put that off a little longer.

  6. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost tracker View Post
    Only hits count. Center-mass hits count more than perimeter hits. BIG center-mass hits count more than little center-mass hits. These are The LAWS of Physics we're talking about here, these are NOT suggestions or theory. To doubt these tenants is like doubting gravity. You may have a contrasting opinion, but you STILL can't escape the effects of gravity or the effects of...center mass hits from BIG bullets.
    Agreed - But - Some testing shows that quality 9mm, 40 an 45 all expand to about the same caliber and penetrate to about the same depth, resulting in similar performance. If that is true, it seems the next factor up would be the ability to deliver repeat shots - which depends mostly on the shooter's ability ( discounting luck ) to handle his gun/cartridge combination. Hence the caliber argument! I know what works for me but it sure is fun to bat it around with others.
    Last edited by nathanjns; December 6th, 2012 at 02:53 PM. Reason: Spelling

  7. #171
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    Wink The .32 ACP is better than you think

    While I was stationed in Germany I had the oppportunity own both a .32 ACP pistol and a .380 ACP pistol. Out of curiosity, I did penetration tests, using an old collection of encyclopedias. The .380 was a Llama loaded with Wincheter FMJ. I used a Beretta Model 70 chambered in .32 ACP and loaded with German RWS FMJ. When I compared the bullet tracks I was surprized to find the .32 ACP penetrated aboyt 25 percent deeper and tumbled during the process, enlarging the bullet channel. The .380 simply went straight in and stopped.I later read tha the .32 ACP doesn't behave on impact the same as other bullets. Uponentering the human body they begin tumbling, action like a miniature buzzsaw. Should the bullet hit bone, it is likely to be sent off at an angle, making unpredictable wound channels.Also, Germn-made .32 ACP is a different animal than what is produced here. It ismuch hotter, I clocked a magazzine-full at an average of 1,024 FPS out of my Walther PP. All I can tell you is that I woldn't want to be on the receiving end of that.
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  8. #172
    New Member Array Finnian's Avatar
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    Greg,

    Great data and great effort, but it's missing a critical piece. Skill (presumed or recorded) of the shooter.
    How many of the various calibers were shot by trained (skilled) shooters and how many were fired by untrained users?
    The training will invariably indicate where 1st and 2nd shot impacts land, and how effective they are.
    Are all the rounds recorded in your study from police shootings or are there some mixes in there from civilian world also?

    Having a long military career, I've seen a vast difference in training and use.
    I know 100's of folks that will argue in favor of the stopping power of the M1911 .45Cal pistol of the 9MM Baretta the military switched to during the 80's. However well a .45 stops, it was much harder to place a round accuratly in the organ core of the torso than with the 9MM. With the 9MM, I could aim for a head or heart shot, with the .45 it was aim for the silhouette and hope for the best. (The .45's at that time were all old and loose and many were just abused beyond the point of being a quality tight weapon. But the difference mattered.

  9. #173
    Member Array Taurus85UL's Avatar
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    Shot placement seems to be the key here. If I am shot with a .22 in the chest or face I'm going to quit doing what I was doing. I'm thinking that if I shoot you with my .38 that you will stop doing what you were doing. I feel very comfortable with my .38 caliber hand gun. I'm betting my life on it.

  10. #174
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    I have always heard that most deaths/murders are caused by the .22 rimfire, because it by far the most common, and used by hitmen....

  11. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanfordreed View Post
    I have always heard that most deaths/murders are caused by the .22 rimfire, because it by far the most common, and used by hitmen....
    I think it's BS, but if you look at the charts associated with the study you see that the .22 has a higher fatality rate, I asked Greg about this:

    I think the two may be somewhat related...It's a small bullet, it doesn't incapacitate well. I 'm guessing that many of the people who were hit with it (even seriously) didn't know they were hit. They didn't immediately go to the hospital for treatment. By the time they recognized they had a problem, it was too late and they died.
    Many of the people shot were criminals. They don't want to go to the hospital with a gunshot wound. They see a little .22 hole in their skin and they say "that ain't ****" as they slowly bleed to death internally.
    One other factor to consider is that the .22 is outside lubricated. It picks up all kinds of crap as it goes down the barrel and through clothing. It carries all that crap into the wound. The death rates from infection are likely higher with it than with other bullets.
    For some more info about this supposition regarding the .22:

    But the .22 Has Killed.....

  12. #176
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    [QUOTE=oneshot;1946484]

    Hate to nit-pick, but I believe the correct Hebrew translation is "Man plans, God Laughs." At least that what my mother used to tell me. But then she also used to say, "It's not illegal until you get caught" Sounds better in Yiddish.

    Bruce
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  13. #177
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    I again call BS on some of these self proclaimed experts that leave out information to make their story look good. There have been lots of people shot with a 10mm and the FBI and a lot of LE used to carry it. Why does he not mention it? Why when the chart below is used the 10mm gets left off? All you new gun owners that get so involved in the various gun forums should look elsewhere for your information and make your own decision instead of believing everything you read.

  14. #178
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeke4351 View Post
    I again call BS on some of these self proclaimed experts that leave out information to make their story look good. There have been lots of people shot with a 10mm and the FBI and a lot of LE used to carry it. Why does he not mention it? Why when the chart below is used the 10mm gets left off? All you new gun owners that get so involved in the various gun forums should look elsewhere for your information and make your own decision instead of believing everything you read.
    LOL! Funny photoshopping with the nuclear mushroom cloud sideways in the 10mm bullet track. Cute.
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  15. #179
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    Regression analysis

    I have to confess that I haven't read every post on this thread, because now, in early 2014, there are so many of them. So please forgive me if this was covered already, but has anyone done a regression analysis on the data the author collected? I've noticed a number of posts in this thread that suggest a high level of interest in learning what the data are telling us, and just as important, not telling us.

    Regression analysis can be a very effective way to get an understanding of what kinds of conclusions we can be confident of drawing out of the data, and which the data can't support.

    If the author of the study is still monitoring the thread, I would be happy to run a regression on the data if he could make it available, hopefully in a format I can load into Excel.

    Thanks again everyone for the interesting conversation on this topic.
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  16. #180
    Ex Member Array Freds's Avatar
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    I always found handgun best for quick and sudden reaction to any attackers. Because it is easy to carry a handgun and its ammo with you all the time.

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