.45 ACP & .357 Magnum PD Ammo? - Page 2

.45 ACP & .357 Magnum PD Ammo?

This is a discussion on .45 ACP & .357 Magnum PD Ammo? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I would recommend the Winchester Ranger T rounds for both, 230gr in 45acp and 125 gr in .357. The Ranger line uses the 'Talon' bullet ...

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Thread: .45 ACP & .357 Magnum PD Ammo?

  1. #16
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    I would recommend the Winchester Ranger T rounds for both, 230gr in 45acp and 125 gr in .357. The Ranger line uses the 'Talon' bullet which is renowned for it's stopping power and devastating wound characteristics. Originally known as the 'Black Talon', complaints by ER doctors that the bullets were causing excessive wounds from the petals of the hollowpoint jacket coming off the core and causing secondary wound channels. Winchester took the bullet off the market and simply re-packaged them as the Ranger and changed the jacket color. A great example of how hollowpoints are supposed to work...
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  2. #17
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolvingMag View Post
    I just swapped my Hydra-Shocks for my Glasers. I live in an apartment, and I think they're better for 'safe' SD shooting- less likely to punch through than a hollow point.

    Just my opinion, based on the information I've found on them. Luckily, I haven't had to use either.
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX-JB View Post
    I would recommend the Winchester Ranger T rounds for both, 230gr in 45acp and 125 gr in .357. The Ranger line uses the 'Talon' bullet which is renowned for it's stopping power and devastating wound characteristics. Originally known as the 'Black Talon', complaints by ER doctors that the bullets were causing excessive wounds from the petals of the hollowpoint jacket coming off the core and causing secondary wound channels. Winchester took the bullet off the market and simply re-packaged them as the Ranger and changed the jacket color. A great example of how hollowpoints are supposed to work...
    last time I checked, Ranger-T does not come in .357 magnum. .357 sig, yes...but that's a completely different thing.
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  4. #19
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    Corbon DPX or Remington Golden Sabre, both 125 grain in my LCR 357 mag.

  5. #20
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    AZ Hawk I agree, although I would say stick to Federal, Cor-Bon, Hornady, Remington, Winchester or CCI ammunition, and more important the primary determinant of stopping power is BULLET PLACEMENT. The main thing I rely on is my training and the perp is not trained. One must remember this is a last resort (Unless is combat) you do not shoot to wound or kill, do everything you can think of to talk the perp out his intentions. Although, if you are staring down the barrel of a 9mm or 44 mag and the perp is shaking then the appropiate action should be taken to defend your life and /or your loved ones, or anyone you feel that is in danger. Just make sure if you decide to intervene that one of the two or more is not an LEO
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  6. #21
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    I do not live in a Condo or apartment so all of my guns are stoked with Cor-Bon DPX in 9MM, 40S&W and .45ACP. Also no children in the house. I know how my 3 level house is built and have enough early warning devices that I am ready for anyone coming in. On the street it is a G-19 stoked with 115GR Cor-Bon DPX and two spare mags with the same. These bullets will do the job when they are sent in the right direction. I test myself every 2-3 weeks at my membership range. Do you do qualification testing at what interval? There are tons of drills to do that will test you and time on the shot timer.
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  7. #22
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    I use whatever 230gr JHP from Federal, Winchester, CCI, or Remington happens to be in stock at the shop when I need ammo. Right now Ranger T, most impressive.

    The Windicators I have seen did not impress me as guns I would shoot a lot of full power 125gr .357 in. If it were me I'd use +P, or a mild .357 like the Gold Saber.
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  8. #23
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    Federal HST the best PD ammo made bar none. Do a search on the forum there are more than few extensive informative threads about HST and its remarkable performance. In one thread I compared Rangers to HST. Rangers performed so poorly that I used up several hundred dollars worth as range ammo as I could not in good conscience give it away as PD ammo.Prior to trying Rangers and switching to HST as my carry ammo I used Golden Sabers with good results and confidence has a long history of being an effective reliable round. Still use it in my wife .380 as they do not make HST in .380
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    Federal HST the best PD ammo made bar none. Do a search on the forum there are more than few extensive informative threads about HST and its remarkable performance. In one thread I compared Rangers to HST. Rangers performed so poorly that I used up several hundred dollars worth as range ammo as I could not in good conscience give it away as PD ammo.Prior to trying Rangers and switching to HST as my carry ammo I used Golden Sabers with good results and confidence has a long history of being an effective reliable round. Still use it in my wife .380 as they do not make HST in .380
    definite +1 here
    I would just add if u can't get hst's get gold dot, same projectile

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ranastas View Post
    definite +1 here
    I would just add if u can't get hst's get gold dot, same projectile
    Incorrect. HST and Gold Dot use completely different bullets.

    They are both effective, however, and only Gold Dot comes in .357 magnum.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolvingMag View Post
    I just swapped my Hydra-Shocks for my Glasers. I live in an apartment, and I think they're better for 'safe' SD shooting- less likely to punch through than a hollow point.

    Just my opinion, based on the information I've found on them. Luckily, I haven't had to use either.
    Hopefully I am misinterpreting this and you have tested your ammo for reliability and accuracy. Setting aside my opinion of designer rounds for a moment.

    Regardless of what ammo you choose to carry for self defense, it is a huge mistake to not thoroughly test your carry ammo for reliability and accuracy in your carry gun. Most firearms trainer suggest that you shoot at least 100 to 250 rounds (I shoot 250 rounds) through the weapon you intend to use it in to assure absolute 100% reliability and accuracy. If in those 250 rounds I have any failure, of any kind I try to isolate the problem, spring, extractor, feed ramp, firing pin, magazine or whatever and try to resolve it. Than I start at step one with another 250 rounds. Again they must all fire without any kind of failure or issue. Even if I shoot 249 rounds without a problem if I have an FTE or FTF of any kind on round number 250 I will not carry that ammo in that gun for self defense. Unless I can positively isolate the problem and fix it so I can shoot 250 rounds without failure and assure 100% reliability. That can get to be pretty spendy at four bits to a buck a round but no matter how good the ammo is, or what the reviews say even heat seeking laser guided exploding nano bot ammunition is worthless if it does not function reliably 100% of the time out of your weapon. The only way to assure that is to test it before you NEED it. When your or your loved ones lives are on the line is not the time for an opps moment. While testing for reliability and accuracy you can test for performance as well. Though ballistic wax or gel, water bottles or wet newspaper do not show exactly how a bullet will perform through human tissue and bone. Any will give you a decent idea of what you can expect and provide a basis for comparison of the effectiveness of one round to another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ranastas View Post
    definite +1 here
    I would just add if u can't get hst's get gold dot, same projectile
    Incorrect. HST and Gold Dot use completely different bullets.

    They are both effective, however, and only Gold Dot comes in .357 magnum.
    That was my thought as well. Seems to me Gold Dot is older technology, which is not to say bad. Ranastas do you have a source you can quote to verify your opinion? I see Gold Dot is also available in .380 which HST is not, that may worth investigating for my wife's .380
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  12. #27
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    well if their are differences they are minute, its the speer 5 pedal design. imho they went that way because the hydra shock preformed well in 45 but not so good in 9 just speculation. i have both and carry both ive done my own tests on both, and if you watch the fbi testing protocols video on their le web site you will see what i mean they preform the same way. http://le.atk.com/general/irl/videos.aspx maybe their are slight differrences manufacturing but from a design standpoint its awfuly damn close to me. really all i care about is that either one in the 230 grain flavor penetrate over 12 inches through fabric into gel and expand to about .87 of an inch so if i have to use it to make sure i make it home that it destroys as much tissue as possible

    and not to start a riot but the whole black talon thing was a anti gun media hype monster that took on a lif of its own an yeah they took the molybdenum coating off and call it a ranger t now but its the same design a reverse pedal that doesent open as routinely as one would hope
    Last edited by ranastas; September 30th, 2011 at 06:45 AM.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ranastas View Post
    well if their are differences they are minute, its the speer 5 pedal design. imho they went that way because the hydra shock preformed well in 45 but not so good in 9 just speculation. i have both and carry both ive done my own tests on both, and if you watch the fbi testing protocols video on their le web site you will see what i mean they preform the same way. LE - Wound Ballistic Videos maybe their are slight differrences manufacturing but from a design standpoint its awfuly damn close to me. really all i care about is that either one in the 230 grain flavor penetrate over 12 inches through fabric into gel and expand to about .87 of an inch so if i have to use it to make sure i make it home that it destroys as much tissue as possible

    and not to start a riot but the whole black talon thing was a anti gun media hype monster that took on a lif of its own an yeah they took the molybdenum coating off and call it a ranger t now but its the same design a reverse pedal that doesent open as routinely as one would hope
    Sorry, but again, you are incorrect.

    Ranger SXT is a Black Talon sans molycoat (SXT--Same eXact Talon)--although, some of them still wore their molycoat.

    Ranger-T is an improved Talon; it does much better at barrier penetration than BT/SXT.

    As far as efficacy, however, R-T, HST, and GD are all pretty much the same, and I wouldn't hesitate to use any of them in my defensive pistols (assuming that I'd tested 'em and verified my pistol liked 'em).
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  14. #29
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    ok well I guess I'm not as elite as u sir, regardless of sxt or t my point was that the bullet coated not coated or shot out of an uber HK was never what the media claimed it to be. but I do feel much better that you corrected me as far as what I carry and trust must be proven with my own testing due diligence if you would, do for me il stick with hst or golddot

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ranastas View Post
    well if their are differences they are minute, its the speer 5 pedal design. imho they went that way because the hydra shock preformed well in 45 but not so good in 9 just speculation. i have both and carry both ive done my own tests on both, and if you watch the fbi testing protocols video on their le web site you will see what i mean they preform the same way. LE - Wound Ballistic Videos maybe their are slight differences manufacturing but from a design standpoint its awfuly damn close to me. really all i care about is that either one in the 230 grain flavor penetrate over 12 inches through fabric into gel and expand to about .87 of an inch so if i have to use it to make sure i make it home that it destroys as much tissue as possible

    and not to start a riot but the whole black talon thing was a anti gun media hype monster that took on a lif of its own an yeah they took the molybdenum coating off and call it a ranger t now but its the same design a reverse pedal that doesent open as routinely as one would hope
    Thanks for the info I will look into it further, Speer and Federal are part of the same company so it does make sense. For me it is great news as they do not make HST in .380 but the Gold Dots are available in that caliber. If it performs as as well as the HST that will be a boon for us. I have not found anything that performs as well as HST. The HST 230 grain has consistently expanded to a hair under the diameter of a quarter with 100% weight retention. No matter what I have shot it into or through. Those six wicked petals ripping through bone and tissue will leave an horrendous wound channel. The very last thing on earth I'd want to be hit with. Which is vastly different from the results I got out of more than 500x2 rounds of Rangers in 9mm & .45.

    I have to agree with your comments regarding the Black Talon. As I recall there was huge media hype against it. If I remember correctly it was the first round to be called cop killer bullets with the media claiming it penetrated Body Armour which it did not do. I believe Winchester took it off the market before congress came up with legislation restricting ammo design. My understanding is Rangers are a updated version of the Talons minus the coating

    I know that several credible sources have gotten much different results than I have. I have no reason to distrust their results. But as I said out of My GUNS Rangers performed so poorly I would not give it away to anyone I cared about for SD ammo. I dumped mine down range as practice ammo and not very accurate for that purpose. Nearly $1K worth, all told. The unbonded variant had consistent jacket separation. Accuracy was barely within minimum acceptable levels. I was getting 3 and 4 inch groups off hand. Maybe because I was really ticked off. I get 2 maybe a few 2.5 and 3s with HST. Ranger expansion was all over the place rarely were there any distinguishable petals at all. My old Golden Sabers performed better with less jacket separation. It was a lesson well earned, I had gotten a good deal so rather than just buy a box or two to performance test I bought all my reliability testing and carry ammo at once. About 500 rounds each of 9mm and .45 ammo. That is not petty cash for me so I was extremely unhappy with the results I saw. As I said I am not saying Rangers are bunk for everyone. Maybe what I had would have worked well for someone else but I was not about to take that chance. I'd rather take my loses and move on. Its been a few years now. In a few more I will be able to laugh about a lesson well learned. Right now I am still stuck on if I had not wasted that money I would have been able to afford a Les Baer Custom Centennial 1911.
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    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

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