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Frag ammo

This is a discussion on Frag ammo within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Blindeye I'm a surgeon, and I've seen 1 (one) frangible ammo hit in a human (Miami). The patient was shot in the ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blindeye View Post
    I'm a surgeon, and I've seen 1 (one) frangible ammo hit in a human (Miami).

    The patient was shot in the neck, at less than 14 inches, I believe by a short barrel 38 special revolver.
    The patient was quadriplegic (immediately following the shot).
    Where in the neck, if I may ask? Direct hit to the CNS or was it from the side and had to pass through tissue?
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  2. #17
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blindeye View Post
    I'm a surgeon, and I've seen 1 (one) frangible ammo hit in a human (Miami).

    The patient was shot in the neck, at less than 14 inches, I believe by a short barrel 38 special revolver.
    The patient was quadriplegic (immediately following the shot).

    I don't know the brand of ammo. The pellets contained by the jacket were approx. number 8 lead shot.
    My attendings were surprised that I knew what it was because they didn't (the cops confirmed frangible ammo).

    The patient was stealing a car, and dragging the owner along for the ride as he held on to the car. I don't know exactly how the car owner managed to get off the shot.
    Very messy wound. No recovery from the spinal cord injury. There were 3 or 4 pellets within the spinal canal that passed through the spinal cord.

    G.
    I bet he didn't steal anymore cars.
    I'd say there is a real good chance thay didn't file charges so they wouldn't have to deal with providing care to somebody that isn't too much of a threat to society
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  3. #18
    Member Array CountShotula's Avatar
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    Glaser's Silver uses no. 6 shot.
    Might have been an older Magsafe.

  4. #19
    Senior Member Array Texag's Avatar
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    I'm curios as to what the OP considers impressive performance in gel. The tests of glasers and magsafe I have seen all indicate these loads will leave shallow wounds that will be insufficient to reach vital organs if a less than ideal shot is the only one you have. Now, I've never been involved in a shooting/gunfight, but I have been told that people don't typically stand still and offer you a pretty facing shot directly into the chest. Penetration is your friend, especially with pistol rounds.
    Cuda66 likes this.
    I collect ammo, not guns.

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array 357and40's Avatar
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    I bought some Speer Frangible Sinterfire ammo in 357 sig a while back. I had several bullets break while sliding into the feed ramp. I am not fond of the stuff.
    "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain."
    - Roy Batty

  6. #21
    Member Array CountShotula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texag View Post
    I'm curios as to what the OP considers impressive performance in gel.
    I'm not a big follower of gel tests.
    I'd rather chose a type of ammunition with good "street" credit/reputation rather than impressive gel performance.

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CountShotula View Post
    I'm not a big follower of gel tests.
    I'd rather chose a type of ammunition with good "street" credit/reputation rather than impressive gel performance.
    Then you should be choosing a modern, quality JHP, which has a lot more "street" time than any of the prefragged rounds ever will.

    And, fwiw, good gel performance tends to indicate good street performance. A couple of shootings using a round is anectdotal only.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  8. #23
    Senior Member Array Texag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CountShotula View Post
    I'm not a big follower of gel tests.
    I'd rather chose a type of ammunition with good "street" credit/reputation rather than impressive gel performance.
    That's your loss, because as Cuda said, performance in properly calibrated ballistic gel has been shown time and time again to be a reliable indicator of performance in human tissue.
    I collect ammo, not guns.

  9. #24
    Member Array CountShotula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
    And, fwiw, good gel performance tends to indicate good street performance. A couple of shootings using a round is anectdotal only.
    I just conducted a wetpack test on a variety of ammo that included a Glaser Silver I had in 38 special.
    I plan on posting my test results once I get some pictures.
    My .25 automatic penetrated deeper than the Glaser did.
    I carry 38 Special Buffalo Bore Wadcutters.

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CountShotula View Post
    I'm not a big follower of gel tests.
    I'd rather chose a type of ammunition with good "street" credit/reputation rather than impressive gel performance.
    Good point. I have also never seen gel attack people so no need to worry how it will perform against a "gel assassin".

  11. #26
    Senior Member Array Texag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    Good point. I have also never seen gel attack people so no need to worry how it will perform against a "gel assassin".
    Well how would you recommend testing the terminal performance of rounds in a consistent and repeatable manner that shows a strong correlation with how bullets behave in human tissue?

    I anxiously await your reply.
    I collect ammo, not guns.

  12. #27
    Member Array CountShotula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texag View Post
    Well how would you recommend testing the terminal performance of rounds in a consistent and repeatable manner that shows a strong correlation with how bullets behave in human tissue?

    I anxiously await your reply.
    Go hog hunting, no bag limit in my state.
    This whole gel test argument means this:
    -gel testing does give a reliable means to test the terminal ballistics and consistency of how a round was designed to behave.
    -gel blocks are not a sure-fire representation of how a bullet will behave.
    Gel blocks are not flesh and bone is what I mean. I am not condemning gel tests, I just need more evidence than how it behaves in jello and in controlled environments.

    Anyways to get back on topic...here is an interesting read I found.
    With all of this interest in the performance of Glasers I thought you might
    like a summary of the first 14 cases that Ed Sanow (Edwin J. Sanow now that
    he has co-authored the "definitive" study of handgun effectiveness) reported
    in Combat Handguns (April '89, pp28-33).

    He broke the performances down into three catagories:

    1) Average = the glaser performed as well as any conventional bullet would;
    2) Failure = a conventional bullet would have provided superior results; and,
    3) Success = the glaser accomplished what would not have been possible for a
    conventional bullet.

    Average Results:

    1) Texas, office setting, range 5-6 yards. 9mm Glaser flatpoint. Impacted upper
    right torso near nipple at a slight quartering angle, perforating and
    shredding the pectoral muscle and shattering two ribs. The Glaser had
    disintegrated by this point. Shot pellets and bone fragments continued
    penetrating creating a 5 inch dia. wound in lung. The clinically lethal
    wounds were inflicted by the balance of the rounds fired. Some of these
    were Rem 115 JHP which failed to expand at this off-the-muzzle range and
    perforated the victim.

    2) San Diego, CA. .38 SPL +P Glaser. The bullet impacted the upper torso on
    a nearly frontal shot; this is supposed to be the best possible condition
    for a Glaser to work. The bullet penetrated between the ribs on the right
    side saturating the top of the liver. The victim collapsed after 10 seconds
    from a profusely bleeding wound.

    3) Indianapolis, 9mm flatnose Glaser. The shot was pulled low and impacted the
    knee cap destroying both the knee cap and the distal femur and proximal
    tibia. The individual dropped to the ground but was still able to discharge
    his shotgun. He was taken out by torso hits from a standard .38 SPL. Any
    load with an expanding bullet or a non-expanding bullet would have had the
    same results on the knee joint. The big claim to fame for the Glaser in this
    case was a non-perforating wound.

    Failures:

    4) San Diego, .45 ACP flatnose Glaser. The victim was first shot in the liver
    by a .22 LR and fled the house. Her attacker followed after rearming with
    the .45 Auto and fired the first Glaser at a distance of 2 feet. The angle
    of impact was "directly accross the chest", I don't know what direction
    this refers to exactly. Penetration was 4 inches from the right side.
    Sanow claims that whatever direction he was refering to above, the bullet
    path was "totally insignificant in terms of stopping power". Go figure.
    Anyway, she stopped running after being hit and then started again. The
    second Glaser also entered the right side from about 45 degrees from the
    front on a line that would have gone between the lungs and ended at the
    left shoulder blade. This shot was a little lower than the first which I
    think means the first must have impacted somewhere around the armpit. Again
    this second shot never entered the body cavity but rather curved around the
    rib cage and came to rest in a fat layer. The victim slowed down and
    collapsed, Sanow says because of blood loss due to the .22LR in the liver.
    She was excuted by a third Glaser behind the ear.

    5) Texas, .38 SPL +P. The bullet impacted the upper arm either hitting a heavy
    bicep or the bicep and humerous. It disintegrated in the arm causing massive
    soft tissue damage but no pellets entered the thorax.

    6) .38 SPL fired from a 2 inch Colt. The woman is on the floor firing up at a
    steep angle. Distance less than 4 feet. The Glaser impacted just above the
    right hip on a line passing through the liver and the heart. Penetration
    was 3 inches and the pellets never even made it to the liver. The robber
    ran 22 blocks and checked himself into the hospital there.

    7) .38 SPL +P Glaser from a 4 inch revolver at a distance of 8-9 feet. The
    bullet impacted the sternum at an angle of 30-45 degrees but first hit
    a large heavy zipper. The bullet disintgrated carrying part of the zipper
    below the skin. All of the metal stayed between the skin and the rib cage.
    The result was a very bloody surface wound and the stopping power was "from
    victim compliance and nothing else". Remember this phrase bacause we will
    need it again for one of the "successes".

    Successes:

    8) Two police officers firing .357 Mag flatnose and 9mm flatnose Glasers. The
    distance was short as it took place in a basement. The .357 bounced off of
    the top of the forehead having no effect. The 9mm struck the lower abdomen
    off-center well to one side resulting in a large amount of abdominal damage
    and the ultimate loss of a significant amount of intestines. The felon
    dropped instantly.

    9) El Salvador, paramilitary instructor firing a 9mm Glaser at an ambusher.
    Impacted from a quartering angle about mid-torso producing a large
    shallow entrance wound just under the diaphram and saturated the spleen.
    The soldier rolled head over heels in mid-stride and was found dead a few
    moments later.

    10)Kentucky, 9mm Glaser and a 9mm Silvertip of unknown generation. The Silver-
    tip was first and the nose collapsed inwards. The Glaser struck the groin
    area, eviscerating the felon dropping him. Pelletes were found in the chest
    cavity and down in the thighs.

    11)Florida, 9mm Glaser, distance 4 feet. A knife wielder was hit in the right
    shoulder under the collar bone dropping the knife. He took two steps,
    doubled over, going down to one knee; picked up the knife and then walked
    61 yards to his residence. He was relatively mobile and dangerous for 3
    minutes after being shot. The entrance hole was nickel sized, the bullet
    disintgrating after 2 inches shattering the clavical and ruptureing the
    sub-clavical artery. If stopping power "from victim compliance and no other
    reason" is the criterion of a failure, this sure sounds like one to me.

    12)Texas, .357 Mag. The victim was struck from behind and a slight angle with
    the bullet path on a line from the spine to the heart. The slug missed the
    spinal column and disintegrated instantly. Very few pellets reached the
    heart but they saturated the pulmonary arteries and veins. The felon dropped
    immediately but not due these wounds. A chip of one vertebral body was blown
    off and into the spinal cord. The bullet did not appear to impact the spinal
    column and the fragment was attributed to the "large and early stretch
    cavity, a stretch cavity typical of Glasers".

    13).38 SPL +P Glaser from a snubby. Range was under 10 feet. This was the
    "classic scenario for the Glaser". The slug struck the lower part of the
    sternum from a fully frontal shot, saturating the heart and perforating
    the aorta.

    14)Chicago, .44 SPL flatnose Glasers, 3 inch barrel. Five rounds fired, only
    two impacted. One struck an extremity, the other struck the upper torso
    in the area of the left nipple at a slight angle from the front shredding
    the left lung and the left side of the heart. "As is typical of the Glaser
    no part of the projectile overpenetrated to endanger others"; that job was
    left to the three rounds that missed their intended target totally.

    There you have it. By my count only 6 successes, 5 failures and 3 average
    performances. If your assailants are so co-operative that they are willing
    to present the "classic scenario for the Glaser" why not just have them lie
    down spreadeagled and then you could just put one in the back of their skulls
    if you really felt the need to shoot.

    Seriously, while the data above are limited in number the picture they present
    is not very promising especially for a super slug. Wharever you may think of
    Evan Marshall's work, by his criteria some of Sanow's "successes" are really
    "failures". Furthermore, the "classic scenario for the Glaser" just happens to
    be the classic scenario for any round and if a .357 Mag 125 JHP is going to
    work you would certainly expect it to work with the absolutely perfect shot
    placements of "successes" #13 & 14. Some of these so-called successes would
    have been successful with most any high perf. conventional defense round and
    I would classify them as just average performance. If you make the adjustment
    to the classifications that common sense dictates you wind up with a cartridge
    that does not perform any better that our better self-defense rounds and that
    can produce some abominal failures that would not occur with a bullet of
    conventional hollow-point construction.

    For the record, if you have read the Marshall/Sanow "Definitive Study" book
    you will recognize these 14 cases. In spite of "Handgun Stopping Power"
    having been published several years after the combat Handgun article refer-
    enced above, they did not list any additional field reports for the Glasers.
    The reasons for this were not stated in the book, so I guess the above reports
    can be considered as representative of Glaser performance as any more recent
    shootings would.

    I hope this will help of some of you newcomers to the group to deal with
    the Glaser myths.
    Source: Glaser Safety Slugs (Geoff Kotzar)

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