I wanted to tell everyone...

This is a discussion on I wanted to tell everyone... within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; zonker1986 just because there is no official .380 +P rating doesn't mean a manufacturer won't create what they define as a +P load. Stagger a ...

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  1. #46
    Member Array CountShotula's Avatar
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    zonker1986 just because there is no official .380 +P rating doesn't mean a manufacturer won't create what they define as a +P load.
    Stagger a magazine between BB 100 grain +P and WWB 95 grain, you'll notice a difference.
    gottabkiddin likes this.

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  3. #47
    VIP Member Array Gene83's Avatar
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    While we're talking about the existence or non-existence of +P in .380, has anybody ever had any experience with this stuff? More stopping power than a .45 in .380 caliber is a heck of a claim.

    "The superior man, when resting in safety, does not forget that danger may come." ~ Confucius

  4. #48
    Member Array CountShotula's Avatar
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    Magsafe loads everything of theirs quite hot...and tends to make awesome claims like that.
    A .32 can have more stopping power than a .45 if the placement allows.

  5. #49
    VIP Member Array zonker1986's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CountShotula View Post
    zonker1986 just because there is no official .380 +P rating doesn't mean a manufacturer won't create what they define as a +P load.
    Stagger a magazine between BB 100 grain +P and WWB 95 grain, you'll notice a difference.
    Manufacturers do not set the SAAMI for any load. That is done by Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI). Most firearms are rated for the SAAMI for a particular caliber....and
    loading a round in excess of SAAMI can have disastrous consequences if your gun can't take the additional pressure. Buffalo Bore is notorious for pushing the envelope in their ammuntion loading process,
    and I just want to warn folks that just because a load looks really promising on paper, does not mean they should be shooting BB ammo out of their guns. I can't even imagine the recoil out of a 3AT or LCP with this stuff even it will handle the additional pressure......fast followup shots would be pretty tough to accomplish, not to mention reduction in the life of your gun.
    Bombsaway likes this.
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  6. #50
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gene83 View Post
    While we're talking about the existence or non-existence of +P in .380, has anybody ever had any experience with this stuff? More stopping power than a .45 in .380 caliber is a heck of a claim.
    I'm of the opinion that the light weight gr bullet will hit like a ton, but dumps most all of its energy on impact. For a summer load it could do some real damage, but I like the heavier load for penetration, and overall performance. LIke someone mentioned, I stagger my rounds all BB +p stuff. Starts off with the 95gr JHP then followed by two of the 100gr HC rounds. I don't care who they are, that's gonna hurt like a car-wreck; good hits and it's over.

    As to the claim, .380 over the .45, I'm thinking noway.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

  7. #51
    VIP Member Array Gene83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    I'm of the opinion that the light weight gr bullet will hit like a ton, but dumps most all of its energy on impact. For a summer load it could do some real damage, but I like the heavier load for penetration, and overall performance. LIke someone mentioned, I stagger my rounds all BB +p stuff. Starts off with the 95gr JHP then followed by two of the 100gr HC rounds. I don't care who they are, that's gonna hurt like a car-wreck; good hits and it's over.

    As to the claim, .380 over the .45, I'm thinking noway.
    I'm thinking at $16.95 for eight rounds, I'm not going to be testing any of it anytime soon. I was just curious if anybody had ever fooled with it.
    "The superior man, when resting in safety, does not forget that danger may come." ~ Confucius

  8. #52
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    I'm thinking at $16.95 for eight rounds, I'm not going to be testing any of it anytime soon.
    Yeah, I know what ya mean...


    The boast about the stopping power isn't the only thing inflated about it. Sorta like the Glaser Safety Slug stuff. that stuff is priced similarly.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

  9. #53
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Let's get something straight. The SAAMI ratings are based on pressure, not velocity. So for those of you who say there is no +p designation, by SAAMI, may be correct but not in the sense you think you are.

    Companies like Double Tap and Buffalo Bore can make rounds with higher velocities, WITHOUT surpassing SAMMI recomendations to levels I cannot duplicate at the bench by "blending powders". This is not a safe practice for the guy at home, but for companies spending time in the R&D of loads, with payed technicians and equipment, it is being done. And it is done without raising pressure above the acceptable limit.

    It may be harder on the firearm, and in certain cases they may post warnings about not using in certain firearms, but rest assured there is a +p 380.

    FYI, Magtech produced a 380+ p also.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  10. #54
    Distinguished Member Array grouse's Avatar
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    Irregardless as to what caliber one carries always carry the mindset "make 'em count"!

  11. #55
    VIP Member Array zonker1986's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Let's get something straight. The SAAMI ratings are based on pressure, not velocity. So for those of you who say there is no +p designation, by SAAMI, may be correct but not in the sense you think you are.

    Companies like Double Tap and Buffalo Bore can make rounds with higher velocities, WITHOUT surpassing SAMMI recomendations to levels I cannot duplicate at the bench by "blending powders". This is not a safe practice for the guy at home, but for companies spending time in the R&D of loads, with payed technicians and equipment, it is being done. And it is done without raising pressure above the acceptable limit.

    It may be harder on the firearm, and in certain cases they may post warnings about not using in certain firearms, but rest assured there is a +p 380.

    FYI, Magtech produced a 380+ p also.
    .........+P stands for extra pressure, not extra velocity....so why not call it a .380+V?


    here's another for the cheap seats......

    hi-powers--handguns: What About .380 ACP +P Ammunition?

    What About .380 ACP +P Ammunition?
    Questions concerning using +P ammunition in one's defensive .380 ACP pistols turn up now and again on Internet firearm forums which is fine except that .380 ACP in a +P version does not exist.

    It never has.

    SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute) set the rating guidelines by which a specific load's operating pressure is rated as standard or +P. They have been around since 1926. One of their responsibilities has been to publish information on firearm and ammunition-related standards. Several popular handgun calibers definitely do have SAAMI +P ratings, but the 380 just is not one of them.
    Several years ago an ammunition manufacturer known for handgun ammunition having higher-than-usual velocities ordered thousands of new .380 ACP cases. Since previous brass orders from this company had always included "+P" on the headstamp along with the caliber designation, the .380 ACP cases were mistakenly marked the same way and sent to the ammunition maker. The cases were used but subsequent orders for unfired brass made sure that the mistake was not repeated. Today the same load does not bear a +P designation but chronographs the same as the old mis-marked load.

    Several popular handgun cartridges can be had in +P versions including .38 Special and 9mm but not .380 ACP. The reason is that the vast majority of semiautomatic pistols chambered for it are straight blowback designs and the standard-pressure loadings are toward the top of the pressure envelope that this design can safely handle and some loads do generate higher velocities than others and possibly higher accompanying pressures but they are not necessarily operating within SAAMI specs.
    Some using this cartridge favor expanding loads while others recommend FMJ to insure adequate penetration but regardless of where you might stand on this issue,

    understand that currently-produced .380 ACP bearing a +P designation is simply incorrect information.

    Best.
    Stephen A. Camp
    Kimbers are the guns you show your friends....Glocks are the ones you show your enemies.

  12. #56
    Member Array CountShotula's Avatar
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    .........+P stands for extra pressure, not extra velocity....so why not call it a .380+V?
    Because more pressure=more velocity.
    The +P designation is actually a great little thing to have, saves the manufacturer from dealing with people who loaded it into their Lorcin or Cobra Arms and got a finger blown off.
    Don't the manuals of those .380 handguns advice against the use of +P ammo? It might not be officially recognized by some people, but the companies take it very serious.

    I'm beating a dead horse...so anyways, feel good about what you carry. The purpose of carrying is to feel comfortable.

  13. #57
    VIP Member Array zonker1986's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CountShotula View Post
    Because more pressure=more velocity.
    The +P designation is actually a great little thing to have, saves the manufacturer from dealing with people who loaded it into their Lorcin or Cobra Arms and got a finger blown off.
    Don't the manuals of those .380 handguns advice against the use of +P ammo? It might not be officially recognized by some people, but the companies take it very serious.

    I'm beating a dead horse...so anyways, feel good about what you carry. The purpose of carrying is to feel comfortable.
    hmmm. I could have sworn that Gman said that BB and Double Tap were increasing velocity without increasing pressure. Need to alert NASA on that one if its true. I fully understand the concept of increased pressure=increased velocity. If you increase pressure past the approved SAAMI max for the .380, you are approaching dangerous territory.

    the BB +P ammo would void the warranty per my Bersa handbook for my .380 Plus. Only use of SAAMI ammo for which the gun is designed, and non-standard ammo will void it. I would guess that a load called +P when no such designation actually exists would be a no brainer for Bersa Customer Service to tell you to go pound sand.
    Kimbers are the guns you show your friends....Glocks are the ones you show your enemies.

  14. #58
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zonker1986 View Post
    .........+P stands for extra pressure, not extra velocity....so why not call it a .380+V?


    here's another for the cheap seats......

    hi-powers--handguns: What About .380 ACP +P Ammunition?

    What About .380 ACP +P Ammunition?
    Questions concerning using +P ammunition in one's defensive .380 ACP pistols turn up now and again on Internet firearm forums which is fine except that .380 ACP in a +P version does not exist.

    It never has.

    SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute) set the rating guidelines by which a specific load's operating pressure is rated as standard or +P. They have been around since 1926. One of their responsibilities has been to publish information on firearm and ammunition-related standards. Several popular handgun calibers definitely do have SAAMI +P ratings, but the 380 just is not one of them.
    Several years ago an ammunition manufacturer known for handgun ammunition having higher-than-usual velocities ordered thousands of new .380 ACP cases. Since previous brass orders from this company had always included "+P" on the headstamp along with the caliber designation, the .380 ACP cases were mistakenly marked the same way and sent to the ammunition maker. The cases were used but subsequent orders for unfired brass made sure that the mistake was not repeated. Today the same load does not bear a +P designation but chronographs the same as the old mis-marked load.

    Several popular handgun cartridges can be had in +P versions including .38 Special and 9mm but not .380 ACP. The reason is that the vast majority of semiautomatic pistols chambered for it are straight blowback designs and the standard-pressure loadings are toward the top of the pressure envelope that this design can safely handle and some loads do generate higher velocities than others and possibly higher accompanying pressures but they are not necessarily operating within SAAMI specs.
    Some using this cartridge favor expanding loads while others recommend FMJ to insure adequate penetration but regardless of where you might stand on this issue,

    understand that currently-produced .380 ACP bearing a +P designation is simply incorrect information.

    Best.
    Stephen A. Camp

    Can you tell me anything without quoting what someone else says? Do you have a thought of your own?

    If...the ammo is loaded beyond SAMMI recomendations, it is not due to inherent danger of case failure, it is due to what you just quoted, protection of gun designs.
    That fact is, rounds loke like the 44 spl are not loaded to their full potential for the same reason.

    But if a company produces a more potent round than the SAAMI recomendations, they will usually give a warning to not use in guns not designed for the higher pressure.
    The 45-70 is a good example. But instead of calling it a 45-70+p, they gave it a belted rim and called it the 450, to keep it from being used in very old blackpowder are guns.

    So, in fact, regardless of the lack of designation by SAAMI, there is a +p loading for the 380.

    Double Tap used to make the Nuclear 10MM round, which was much hotter than the current Factory offerings of the day.

    Regardless of what Stephen Camp says, the round itself is loaded until it shows signs of high pressure, then backed off with a margin of safety. Thats how the standard is developed, not on the basis of firearm damage.

    If you have been paying attention, or know whats going on, you would understand that manafactuers have been watering down loads for the last 30 years or so.
    Dont believe it? Get some reloading manuels dated for 1970 and compare the data to present day.

    Before the 44 magnum , Elmer Keith was loading the 44 spl hotter than todays 44 magnums. You are lost in the sauce if you say those werent 44 spl +p loads, even though it was unheard of at that time.

    9mm nato is much hotter than +p 9mm loadings, and probably way off SAAMIs scale. So just because its not notated by SAAMI, doesnt mean it doesnt exist or cant be used.

    And finally, as Stephen Camp noted, some loads are above the pressure limit the gun was "safely " designed to handle. But what you must understand is that what he means by this is that it is not going to turn your gun into a hand grenade, but is some older or weaker designs may cause premature wear and / or parts breakage.

    I have seen more catastophic results with underpowered ammo than overpowered. The ammo would be showing obvious signs of high pressure well before it would blow the gun apart, unless it was extremely and grossly loaded with a double charge.
    Last edited by glockman10mm; August 25th, 2011 at 10:20 PM.
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  15. #59
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zonker1986 View Post
    hmmm. I could have sworn that Gman said that BB and Double Tap were increasing velocity without increasing pressure. Need to alert NASA on that one if its true. I fully understand the concept of increased pressure=increased velocity. If you increase pressure past the approved SAAMI max for the .380, you are approaching dangerous territory.

    the BB +P ammo would void the warranty per my Bersa handbook for my .380 Plus. Only use of SAAMI ammo for which the gun is designed, and non-standard ammo will void it. I would guess that a load called +P when no such designation actually exists would be a no brainer for Bersa Customer Service to tell you to go pound sand.
    They do it without signs of high pressure commonly associated with excessive pressure as visible by looking at the case. Without pressure testing it ourself we have no way of knowing what the pressure is, but, by inspecting a fired case, we can see signs of high pressure, and BB or DT show none that I have seen.

    Signs of high pressure would be present if the case was showing bulging, flattened or cratering of primers, but they are not. So therefore, they are safe to shoot, unless otherwise advised by the manafactuer.

    And yes, if Bersa recommends against it, then dont use it. Although I'll bet you a dime to a cream dougnut that the Bersa would be just fine with limited use of this type of ammo. I would use it in a Bersa all day. And if it broke, well they make more.

    But, it is really not necassary to use +p ammo in the 380 as the velocity gain is not really that significant.
    Last edited by glockman10mm; August 25th, 2011 at 10:24 PM.
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  16. #60
    VIP Member Array jwhite75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    There has been much done in the way of testing the 380 over the years. Alot of times it is a 380 vs 38 spl comparison. The 38 has an advantage in bullet weight, and the 380 in capacity and easier platform to shoot accurately ( if compared to a snubby), reload quicker, and higher capacity.

    While I am a 38spl snubby fan, when compared in this way, I have to give it to the 380 auto.
    But only in PPK or Bersa sized guns. They are very accurate guns capable of putting all rounds right where you want them, even at distance.

    So, I believe one must consider platform as well. I have no problem with the 380.
    I agree with this. I would probably carry one in a Sig Sauer 232. Good size gun and very well made. The small pocket models are good at bad breath but not a lot more. The bigger guns would do fine for a CCW.
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