I wanted to tell everyone...

This is a discussion on I wanted to tell everyone... within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by glockman10mm Can you tell me anything without quoting what someone else says? don't like what Mr. Camp has to say? Why should ...

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  1. #61
    VIP Member Array zonker1986's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Can you tell me anything without quoting what someone else says?
    don't like what Mr. Camp has to say? Why should I post my own opinion only to be ridiculed by the masses here? I prefer
    expert testimony and facts. Case closed.
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  3. #62
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    .380...Carry The Right Cartridge. BuffaloBore .380+P

    http://www.buffalobore.com/
    This.........From BuffaloBore (All Credit To BuffaloBore) & I agree with it.
    The 380 auto inhabits a valuable and useful place in our society, mostly because of the easily concealable, tiny pistols chambered for it.
    HOWEVER, because of the very limited size of the cartridge, it is plagued with limited power and therefore most of the existing ammo in 380 auto suffers from not being reliable as a man-stopper. We've studied and played with nearly all of the existing available 380 ammo and find it wanting as a reliable means of self defense, especially against a large, insane, drugged up/pain free, determined attacker.

    Here's the problem. The current 380 auto frangible ammo delivers a large amount of surface trauma, but lacks serious penetration.
    For example, if you shot me or another sane man in the face with modern frangible 380 ammo, it would blow off a big portion of my cheek and send a few teeth down my throat, I would undoubtedly fall to the ground in shock and pain, but I would be very much alive and functional if I could get past the shock and pain as that frangible bullet would have stopped some where inside my face, never making it to my brain.
    However, if you shot a drugged up maniac in the face with that same frangible 380 ammo and blew half his cheek off, he would keep right on coming because he is insane and is not thinking like you or I. Plus, he is likely pain free and fear free and wont know that half his cheek is missing and if he did know, he would not care.
    So whatever 380 ammo you shoot him in the face with, had better go through his face and blow his brain stem out the back of his head, because only a CNS (central nervous system) hit with a 380 is going to stop him.
    Likewise, a torso hit to the sternum needs to penetrate deep enough to blow all the way through his spine in order to shut him down spontaneously. If you fail to shut him down instantly, you and your loved ones are going to have to find a way to survive while you wait for him to bleed out and pass out.
    The best chance of survival for you and your family is to shut down the attacker instantly.

    So, we've designed a few 380 auto +P loads to keep you and your loved ones alive under the worst of scenarios......................................... ...............

  4. #63
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I personally like their hard cast loading.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  5. #64
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Oh dear...not again...and with the same cast of characters, too.

    IMHO - there is no need for a +P .380. The standard FMJ ammo will go through 2 layers of denim, and still go 16-17 inches in gel - from a P3at's short barrel. You can see the gel test results at GoldenLoki.com. The FBI calls for 12 inches minimum, with 15 desired. JHPs in .380 tend to fall just short of the 12 inch standard - so I personally use FMJ.

    The .380 and .38 Spl are just fine for civilian self defense. They only fall short in intermediate barrier penetration. So, if you are a soldier or a LEO and may need to shoot through a car, carry a 9mm or higher.

    Once again, I'm going to post these quotes from a well done real-world-results study. Funny, none of the naysayers seem to have refuted any of the points in this study.

    BTW - this study does show that there is a drop off in effectiveness at .32 and below (in terms of people not incapacitated). So, to answer the question posed earlier in this thread, I would go with a P3at over a P32.

    PS - I carry two LCPs daily. With the finger extension and CT laser, I find them quite "shootable." I even ran one through a low light class, and was very pleased with the results.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

    About the author:

    Greg Ellifritz is the full time firearms and defensive tactics training officer for a central Ohio police department. He holds instructor or master instructor certifications in more than 75 different weapon systems, defensive tactics programs and police specialty areas. Greg has a master's degree in Public Policy and Management and is an instructor for both the Ohio Peace Officer's Training Academy and the Tactical Defense Institute. He can be reached at Greg1095@yahoo.com


    Over a 10-year period, I kept track of stopping power results from every shooting I could find. I talked to the participants of gunfights, read police reports, attended autopsies, and scoured the newspapers, magazines, and Internet for any reliable accounts of what happened to the human body when it was shot.

    I'm just reporting the data. If you don't like it, take Mr. Ayoob's advice...do a study of your own.

    I think the most interesting statistic is the percentage of people who stopped with one shot to the torso or head. There wasn't much variation between calibers. Between the most common defensive calibers (.38, 9mm, .40, and .45) there was a spread of only eight percentage points. No matter what gun you are shooting, you can only expect a little more than half of the people you shoot to be immediately incapacitated by your first hit.

    The average number of rounds until incapacitation was also remarkably similar between calibers. All the common defensive calibers required around 2 rounds on average to incapacitate.

    It is my personal belief that there really isn't much difference between each of these calibers. It is only the fact that some guns can be fired faster than others that causes the perceived difference in stopping power. If a person takes an average of 5 seconds to stop after being hit, the defender who shoots a lighter recoiling gun can get more hits in that time period. It could be that fewer rounds would have stopped the attacker (given enough time) but the ability to fire more quickly resulted in more hits being put onto the attacker. It may not have anything to do with the stopping power of the round.

    Another data piece that leads me to believe that the majority of commonly carried defensive rounds are similar in stopping power is the fact that all four have very similar failure rates

    Now compare the numbers of the handgun calibers with the numbers generated by the rifles and shotguns. For me there really isn't a stopping power debate. All handguns suck! If you want to stop someone, use a rifle or shotgun!

    What matters even more than caliber is shot placement. Across all calibers, if you break down the incapacitations based on where the bullet hit you will see some useful information.
    Head shots = 75% immediate incapacitation
    Torso shots = 41% immediate incapacitation
    Extremity shots (arms and legs) = 14% immediate incapacitation.
    No matter which caliber you use, you have to hit something important in order to stop someone!

    Conclusion
    This study took me a long time and a lot of effort to complete. Despite the work it took, I'm glad I did it. The results I got from the study lead me to believe that there really isn't that much difference between most defensive handgun rounds and calibers. None is a death ray, but most work adequately...even the lowly .22s. I've stopped worrying about trying to find the "ultimate" bullet. There isn't one. And I've stopped feeling the need to strap on my .45 every time I leave the house out of fear that my 9mm doesn't have enough "stopping power." Folks, carry what you want. Caliber really isn't all that important.
    Take a look at the data. I hope it helps you decide what weapon to carry. No matter which gun you choose, pick one that is reliable and train with it until you can get fast accurate hits. Nothing beyond that really matters!
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
    www.armedcitizensnetwork.org - member
    Glock 30, 19, 26; Ruger SP101, LCR, LCP (2), Mini 14; Marlin 336 .30-30
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  6. #65
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zonker1986 View Post
    don't like what Mr. Camp has to say? Why should I post my own opinion only to be ridiculed by the masses here? I prefer
    expert testimony and facts. Case closed.
    I admired and respected the man, but have my own thoughts on things. You will find, that there are people far and near, that may have other ideas, and in fact may actually know more than those in the public eye. One only needs to visit Printer Alley in Nashville Tenn and you will find many singers and musicians every bit as good or better than those on the radio and TV.

    You think you have been ridiculed? Son this is a place where we discuss things, and try to be as civil as possible. But you are getting to be like a rash that just keeps irritating some folks here, including me. Seems like you always have something to say, but can only use what you read somewhere to back it up with. I

    I know at least a dozen people on here that I would go to for information over anybody in the gun rags. And I respect them.

    Acting childish and getting upset if you cant get someone to agree with your way of thinking wont cut it.

    Its not your opinion thats getting you ridiculed, its the way you come across. What you think is expert testimony and facts might be hogwash to someone else. As far as facts go, there are really few facts in ballistics compared to all that we think we know. But rather , we have higher probabilities measured by tangible factors, but there is nothing concrete.

    Relax and get to know some people before you start popping off and you will be alright.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  7. #66
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I personally like their hard cast loading.
    Yup, that's the bad boy of the bunch IMO. It hits hard and has the energy and configuration to go straight and deep.

    Thanks for the information, your knowledge regarding ammo specifications and reloading is impressive to say the least....
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

  8. #67
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Oh dear...not again...and with the same cast of characters, too.

    IMHO - there is no need for a +P .380. The standard FMJ ammo will go through 2 layers of denim, and still go 16-17 inches in gel - from a P3at's short barrel. You can see the gel test results at GoldenLoki.com. The FBI calls for 12 inches minimum, with 15 desired. JHPs in .380 tend to fall just short of the 12 inch standard - so I personally use FMJ.

    The .380 and .38 Spl are just fine for civilian self defense. They only fall short in intermediate barrier penetration. So, if you are a soldier or a LEO and may need to shoot through a car, carry a 9mm or higher.

    Once again, I'm going to post these quotes from a well done real-world-results study. Funny, none of the naysayers seem to have refuted any of the points in this study.

    BTW - this study does show that there is a drop off in effectiveness at .32 and below (in terms of people not incapacitated). So, to answer the question posed earlier in this thread, I would go with a P3at over a P32.

    PS - I carry two LCPs daily. With the finger extension and CT laser, I find them quite "shootable." I even ran one through a low light class, and was very pleased with the results.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

    About the author:

    Greg Ellifritz is the full time firearms and defensive tactics training officer for a central Ohio police department. He holds instructor or master instructor certifications in more than 75 different weapon systems, defensive tactics programs and police specialty areas. Greg has a master's degree in Public Policy and Management and is an instructor for both the Ohio Peace Officer's Training Academy and the Tactical Defense Institute. He can be reached at Greg1095@yahoo.com


    Over a 10-year period, I kept track of stopping power results from every shooting I could find. I talked to the participants of gunfights, read police reports, attended autopsies, and scoured the newspapers, magazines, and Internet for any reliable accounts of what happened to the human body when it was shot.

    I'm just reporting the data. If you don't like it, take Mr. Ayoob's advice...do a study of your own.

    I think the most interesting statistic is the percentage of people who stopped with one shot to the torso or head. There wasn't much variation between calibers. Between the most common defensive calibers (.38, 9mm, .40, and .45) there was a spread of only eight percentage points. No matter what gun you are shooting, you can only expect a little more than half of the people you shoot to be immediately incapacitated by your first hit.

    The average number of rounds until incapacitation was also remarkably similar between calibers. All the common defensive calibers required around 2 rounds on average to incapacitate.

    It is my personal belief that there really isn't much difference between each of these calibers. It is only the fact that some guns can be fired faster than others that causes the perceived difference in stopping power. If a person takes an average of 5 seconds to stop after being hit, the defender who shoots a lighter recoiling gun can get more hits in that time period. It could be that fewer rounds would have stopped the attacker (given enough time) but the ability to fire more quickly resulted in more hits being put onto the attacker. It may not have anything to do with the stopping power of the round.

    Another data piece that leads me to believe that the majority of commonly carried defensive rounds are similar in stopping power is the fact that all four have very similar failure rates

    Now compare the numbers of the handgun calibers with the numbers generated by the rifles and shotguns. For me there really isn't a stopping power debate. All handguns suck! If you want to stop someone, use a rifle or shotgun!

    What matters even more than caliber is shot placement. Across all calibers, if you break down the incapacitations based on where the bullet hit you will see some useful information.
    Head shots = 75% immediate incapacitation
    Torso shots = 41% immediate incapacitation
    Extremity shots (arms and legs) = 14% immediate incapacitation.
    No matter which caliber you use, you have to hit something important in order to stop someone!

    Conclusion
    This study took me a long time and a lot of effort to complete. Despite the work it took, I'm glad I did it. The results I got from the study lead me to believe that there really isn't that much difference between most defensive handgun rounds and calibers. None is a death ray, but most work adequately...even the lowly .22s. I've stopped worrying about trying to find the "ultimate" bullet. There isn't one. And I've stopped feeling the need to strap on my .45 every time I leave the house out of fear that my 9mm doesn't have enough "stopping power." Folks, carry what you want. Caliber really isn't all that important.
    Take a look at the data. I hope it helps you decide what weapon to carry. No matter which gun you choose, pick one that is reliable and train with it until you can get fast accurate hits. Nothing beyond that really matters!

    I totally agree with all the points.

    As for the +p loading. I just like the additional horsepower, and I feel my PPK runs better with the hotter loading. I recently replaced all the springs in it and it's pretty stiff so the additional power should add to its reliability, at least that's what I'm hoping anyway.

    Oh' I shot the horse on my way out, hopefully put the poor thing outa it's misery, but there's no guarantee there won't be a resurrection, after all, I used my .380 to put him down.

    TC
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

  9. #68
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    After reading the Greg Ellifritz posted by10thmtn, it brought something out that has been bouncing around in my mind for years.

    That is the term in incapicitation, and what it really means in relation to percentages given. For example, if it is given that a certain round has a record of incapacitating someone 50% of the time, does that really mean that the other 50% they are still actively engaging you at an intensity great enough to still rain down hell on earth, or does it mean they are totally unconcious and unaware of what is going on, and no longer a threat.

    I have seen enemy shot up, completely aware of their surroundings, yet totally out of the fight, even though their wounds were not immediately life threatening. The pain and fear of how much damage was done to them was enough to completely break their will to fight.

    It makes me wonder just how accurate the term incapacitation is relative to gunshot trauma as we understand it, and if the term really has any significant meaning, especially in regards to bullet or caliber effectiveness.

    I have been the first responder on the scene of a fatal shooting where I was actually able to talk to someone, who sat up and spoke without much effort, yet died enroute to the hospital!

    I have heard and read of numerous accounts of men substaining incredible wounds to the body, yet refused to quit.
    One such that I have personal knowledge of was a skinny guy who shot a police officer and was later hit 5 times with a 45 acp, all good solid body hits, causing him to lose colon tisue and various other organs and is still living. Although I was not there, I have a good acount from those who were that he still was not out of the fight, but was apprhended and disarmed with help from the K9 unit.

    I just think it's something to think about. Maybe the best incapacitation is death.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  10. #69
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    For the record, here is the definition of "incapacitation" used by the study author:

    On average, how many rounds did it take for the person to stop his violent action or be incapacitated? For this number, I included hits anywhere on the body. To be considered an immediate incapacitation, I used criteria similar to Marshall's. If the attacker was striking or shooting the victim, the round needed to immediately stop the attack without another blow being thrown or shot being fired. If the person shot was in the act of running (either towards or away from the shooter), he must have fallen to the ground within five feet. [emphasis added]

    Seems like a very reasonable definition to me. "Incapacitation" means no more shots fired, blows thrown, or running.

    And as he concluded, once you get to the .380/.38 Spl "floor" there seems to be very little difference in going higher in caliber - unless you feel a need to go through barriers...which he also found was a very rare requirement.

    I like this study, because it is based on real world street results - not gel tests, comparisons of energy, or other surrigate markers for effectiveness. Put it this way - if your doctor said "I will give you this drug to treat your condition because I think it works," would you feel OK? That's what "expert opinion" is like. Or, would you feel better if the doctor said, "I will give you this drug to treat your condition because, in a study over 10 years with more than 1000 patients, it has been proven to work." Those are real-world results.
    bmcgilvray likes this.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  11. #70
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    OK Don't Call It .380 "+P"

    Just look at the numbers of the BB loadings and call it what you will.
    I'll accept the numbers of a company that has a primary goal to exist of producing (and making available to self-defensive) the highest quality, hardest hitting, & most effective ammunition per respective caliber/ammo group as tested in actual firearms and not (inflated #) "test" barrels.

    The BB offerings.

    BuffaloBore Standard Pressure .380 Auto
    380 Auto Standard Pressure Ammo 100 gr. Hardcast FN (975 fps/M.E. 211 ft. lbs.)
    380 Auto Standard Pressure Ammo 95 gr. FMJ-FN (975 fps/M.E. 200 ft. lbs.)
    380 Auto Standard Pressure Ammo 90 gr. JHP (1025 fps/M.E. 210 ft. lbs.)

    BuffaloBore +P .380 Auto
    380 Auto +P Ammo - 100 gr. Hardcast F.N. (1150fps/ M.E. 294 ft. lbs.)
    380 Auto +P Ammo - 95 gr. F.M.J. F.N. (1150 fps M.E. 279 ft. lbs.)
    380 Auto +P Ammo - 90 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point (1200fps M.E. 288 ft. lbs.
    380 Auto +P Ammo - 95 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point (1125fps M.E. 267 ft. lbs.
    BUFFALO-BARNES UNLEADED 380 Auto +P Ammo - 80 gr. Barnes TAC-XP (1275fps/ME 289 ft. lbs.)

    My only point being that if your firearm can handle it then carry the tested/proved more effective ammo in it with regard to the "real world" actual performance numbers and make worthwhile use of the ft./lb. advantage - specifically as it pertains to the ability to crash through frontal/facial bone.
    gottabkiddin likes this.

  12. #71
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I agree with the entire article. I wasn't disputing his work, just more or less thinking out loud.

    It just seems that there is no real predictable way to determine what is going to work or not.

    My own conclusion is to strive for deep solid penetration through organs and aim for spinal hits and head shots regardless of caliber.

    In keeping with the spirit of the thread, I do believe the heavier the bullet, the more consistant the results will be. So , I believe the 380 is capable of this, but, I really want the heaviest, hottest bullet I can get to help compensate for it's limited weight. If one hole doesn't work, drill another and repeat.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  13. #72
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    Don't get me wrong.
    I love the .380 because of the diminutive size of the highly concealable SD firearms that are able to be built around it.
    That having been said it (naturally) suffers from case capacity as can be plainly seen.

    It's a simultaneous firearm size advantage & physical case capacity disadvantage.



    So in the Greg Ellifritz study.....is he talking about ".38" as a bullet DIAMETER? That would be because I don't actually SEE .380 ACP there. I see...(.38, 9mm, .40, and .45) as being bullet/projectile diameters.

    "There wasn't much variation between calibers. Between the most common defensive calibers (.38, 9mm, .40, and .45) there was a spread of only eight percentage points."

    You can easily and logically see that even the (real world tested in actual firearms numbers) BuffaloBore Standard Pressure/Low Flash .38 SPL fired from a snubbie trumps the .380 Standard Pressure.

    They may both be ".38s" but, there (for sure) is a cartridge case capacity difference that allows the Standard Pressure .38 SPL to launch a heavier weight projectile with better performance numbers.
    And then getting into .38 SPL +P it's pretty much "Game Over" for the .380.

    Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash Heavy .38 Special Ammo - 158 gr. Soft Lead SWC-HC (850fps/M.E. 253 ft. lbs.)

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Heavy .38 Special +P Ammo - 158 gr. L.S.W.C.H.P. --G.C. (1,000fps/M.E. 351 ft.lbs.)


    Bottom line....I am not saying "Don't Carry A .380"
    I AM saying that there are some really (fairly incredible) modern loadings available for it that make it much more viable and useful for the purpose of Self~Defense carry.
    And I LIKE the fact that there is one company "out there" really making the .380 ACP chambering as good as it can possible be at this particular point in time by using custom formulated, specifically tailored propellants.

    That's my story & I'm sticking to it and there isn't anything that will really cause me to believe otherwise in the Greg Ellifritz study.
    glockman10mm likes this.

  14. #73
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    Pretty simple really. Everything's a tradeoff.

    Mouseguns are convenient, but not as effective as service caliber weapons.

    Service caliber weapons are generally larger and not as easy to conceal, but are consistently more effective than mousegun calibers.

    I'm not willing to sacrifice personal safety for convenience, but that's a personal choice.

    Jeff Cooper once said that carrying a firearm was meant to be comforting, not comfortable.

  15. #74
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    Truthfully I think the credibility of his study is somewhat damaged by this:

    "This study took me a long time and a lot of effort to complete. Despite the work it took, I'm glad I did it.
    The results I got from the study lead me to believe that there really isn't that much difference between most defensive handgun rounds and calibers. None is a death ray, but most work adequately...even the lowly .22s. I've stopped worrying about trying to find the "ultimate" bullet."

    I mean IF that is the case then why bother to even carry...and "lug around" the MASSIVE, bulky, and unnecessarily overpowered .380 ACP pistol?

    As stated in the study & on average you only need 2 shots to stop the attacker and the NAA Mini carries a whopping 5 and with only an eight percentage point difference in stopping power between all calibers & I guess that must (as also stated) include "The Lowly .22" then we are actually Over Gunned with regard to capacity in carrying the North American Arms Mini .22....in fact I think the .22 SHORT version of the NAA Mini is even a bit more compact.



    OK...obviously I'm taking things to the extreme here to make a point but, you catch my general drift I'm sure.

  16. #75
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    I'm not sure if he is talking about caliber or diameter when he says ".38," but if you look at the data and charts, it does not really matter.

    Take a look at "% Actually Incapacitated by one shot (head/torso hit)." Not much difference there.

    Take a look at "Average rounds until incapacitation." Again, little difference.

    Finally, look at "Failure to incapacitate." Similar results again for .380/.38 and up. (Note that results for .32 might be flawed due to small sample size, which he admits)

    As far as his comment about the .22, I think the key word there is "adequate." All handguns suck - at best, they are "adequate" and the most important factor is where the bullet hits, and how many hits you get.

    Regarding Buffalo Bore - my issue with them is their straw man argument. They are comparing their "+P" ammo to frangible bullets. I would never recommend a frangible bullet, in any caliber, except in very specific circumstances. Maybe they were trying to compete with the other "wonder bullets" out there like "Extreme Shock" and the like. In any case, I see no reason to beat my gun up, myself up, and slow down my follow up shots by using their ammo - that's just me. Standard pressure FMJ (preferably with a flat point) will do the job just fine, as seen in the tests done at GoldenLoki.

    My $0.02...worth what you paid for it.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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