Does 9mm have enough stopping power? - Page 5

Does 9mm have enough stopping power?

This is a discussion on Does 9mm have enough stopping power? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by jem102 I'm a fan of .40 and over but I sure don't want hit by any of them nasty little nines... Ive ...

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Thread: Does 9mm have enough stopping power?

  1. #61
    Ex Member Array tcon67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jem102 View Post
    I'm a fan of .40 and over but I sure don't want hit by any of them nasty little nines...
    Ive just got into the .40 and not good enough with it to carry it yet. But I do love to shoot it and I will get better with it. For now tho, I trust my ticker to the 9mm.


  2. #62
    VIP Member Array Gene83's Avatar
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    To answer the original question, I think 9 mm probably has enough stopping power, but I carry .45 ACP just in case it doesn't.
    "The superior man, when resting in safety, does not forget that danger may come." ~ Confucius

  3. #63
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    I can't be sure, but I shot a tree with one the other day and it didn't move.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

  4. #64
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  5. #65
    VIP Member Array Civil_Response's Avatar
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    Yes.

    Doesn't matter what you carry, no round in a handgun is guaranteed a one shot stop. The ones who believe carrying a .45 makes you some kind of superior being over those carrying a 9mm are sadly mistaken.

    If it takes more than one shot - chances are I'm back on target before you.

  6. #66
    VIP Member Array Gene83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder71 View Post
    Yes.

    Doesn't matter what you carry, no round in a handgun is guaranteed a one shot stop. The ones who believe carrying a .45 makes you some kind of superior being over those carrying a 9mm are sadly mistaken.

    If it takes more than one shot - chances are I'm back on target before you.
    Mine's bigger than yours.

    Actually, I had never thought of it that way. It was more a matter of finding a .45 ACP package that weighed the same or a couple of ounces more than a lot of 9 mm. I just went with the bigger package.

    Besides folks aren't saying a whole lot of good things about that new 9 mm Kimber.
    "The superior man, when resting in safety, does not forget that danger may come." ~ Confucius

  7. #67
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jay00f4 View Post
    +1

    If I was a full-time officer, concerned about being able to shoot through windshield glass with as little deflection as possible, and could openly carry as large a handgun as I wanted to - I'd carry a double-stack .45.

    Absent the need for hard-barrier penetration (ie; civilian CCW use), .380/.38 Spl and above is fine.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  8. #68
    VIP Member Array zonker1986's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jay00f4 View Post
    personally think this article does a great disservice to the entire CCW community. Another "feel good, my gun is ok" article for those that carry a sub-service caliber weapon....in total disregard for everything ever written about adequate caliber selection for self defense. JMO, carry what you want, its your butt on the line, not mine.
    Kimbers are the guns you show your friends....Glocks are the ones you show your enemies.

  9. #69
    Senior Member Array IAm_Not_Lost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zonker1986 View Post
    personally think this article does a great disservice to the entire CCW community. Another "feel good, my gun is ok" article for those that carry a sub-service caliber weapon....in total disregard for everything ever written about adequate caliber selection for self defense. JMO, carry what you want, its your butt on the line, not mine.
    All of the real life shooting studies are afflicted by the huge amount of variability that goes along with human bodies, human psyche, and specific shot placement. The factors just mentioned frequently make the studies fairly ambiguous. The one stat in this study I find interesting is the "% of people who were not incapacitated:", i.e. after all was said and done were they still able to come after you? You find that the .25, .22, and .32 all have a 31-40% "not incapacitated" stat, yet once you hit the .380 level the percentage drops to around 15ish%. I haven't seen this stat in other studies and I like it, it doesn't attempt the impossible task of trying to calculate "one stop shot" numbers and all that other garbage, it simply lets you know what percentage of bad guys that were still up after being shot numerous times per the different calibers.
    "Brilliant. So now we got a huge guy theory, and a serial crusher theory. Top notch. What's your name?" - Paul Smecker

  10. #70
    VIP Member Array zonker1986's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IAm_Not_Lost View Post
    All of the real life shooting studies are afflicted by the huge amount of variability that goes along with human bodies, human psyche, and specific shot placement. The factors just mentioned frequently make the studies fairly ambiguous. The one stat in this study I find interesting is the "% of people who were not incapacitated:", i.e. after all was said and done were they still able to come after you? You find that the .25, .22, and .32 all have a 31-40% "not incapacitated" stat, yet once you hit the .380 level the percentage drops to around 15ish%. I haven't seen this stat in other studies and I like it, it doesn't attempt the impossible task of trying to calculate "one stop shot" numbers and all that other garbage, it simply lets you know what percentage of bad guys that were still up after being shot numerous times per the different calibers.

    I've stopped worrying about trying to find the "ultimate" bullet. There isn't one. And I've stopped feeling the need to strap on my .45 every time I leave the house out of fear that my 9mm doesn't have enough "stopping power." Folks, carry what you want. Caliber really isn't all that important.


    somebody call the FBI and your local LE Agency.....they can switch to Walther P22'S because some guy did some half baked study and through a lot of numbers out showing that the .22 is just as effective as a .40SW. And all you CCW's, leave your 1911 home and carry your pocket .25.....its just as effective as a 9mm......this guy told me so.

    You guys read way too many gun magazines.....do your own research and quit grabbing on to some tid bit of bad information to make yourselves feel good about the Beretta Tomcat in your pocket.
    Kimbers are the guns you show your friends....Glocks are the ones you show your enemies.

  11. #71
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Some salient info and quotes from the study:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    About the author:

    Greg Ellifritz is the full time firearms and defensive tactics training officer for a central Ohio police department. He holds instructor or master instructor certifications in more than 75 different weapon systems, defensive tactics programs and police specialty areas. Greg has a master's degree in Public Policy and Management and is an instructor for both the Ohio Peace Officer's Training Academy and the Tactical Defense Institute. He can be reached at Greg1095@yahoo.com


    Over a 10-year period, I kept track of stopping power results from every shooting I could find. I talked to the participants of gunfights, read police reports, attended autopsies, and scoured the newspapers, magazines, and Internet for any reliable accounts of what happened to the human body when it was shot.

    I'm just reporting the data. If you don't like it, take Mr. Ayoob's advice...do a study of your own. [emphasis added]

    I think the most interesting statistic is the percentage of people who stopped with one shot to the torso or head. There wasn't much variation between calibers. Between the most common defensive calibers (.38, 9mm, .40, and .45) there was a spread of only eight percentage points. No matter what gun you are shooting, you can only expect a little more than half of the people you shoot to be immediately incapacitated by your first hit.

    The average number of rounds until incapacitation was also remarkably similar between calibers. All the common defensive calibers required around 2 rounds on average to incapacitate.

    It is my personal belief that there really isn't much difference between each of these calibers. It is only the fact that some guns can be fired faster than others that causes the perceived difference in stopping power. If a person takes an average of 5 seconds to stop after being hit, the defender who shoots a lighter recoiling gun can get more hits in that time period. It could be that fewer rounds would have stopped the attacker (given enough time) but the ability to fire more quickly resulted in more hits being put onto the attacker. It may not have anything to do with the stopping power of the round.

    Another data piece that leads me to believe that the majority of commonly carried defensive rounds are similar in stopping power is the fact that all four have very similar failure rates [emphasis added]

    Now compare the numbers of the handgun calibers with the numbers generated by the rifles and shotguns. For me there really isn't a stopping power debate. All handguns suck! If you want to stop someone, use a rifle or shotgun!

    What matters even more than caliber is shot placement. Across all calibers, if you break down the incapacitations based on where the bullet hit you will see some useful information.
    Head shots = 75% immediate incapacitation
    Torso shots = 41% immediate incapacitation
    Extremity shots (arms and legs) = 14% immediate incapacitation.

    No matter which caliber you use, you have to hit something important in order to stop someone!
    ...

    One other factor to consider is that the majority of these shootings did NOT involve shooting through intermediate barriers, cover or heavy clothing. If you anticipate having to do this in your life (i.e. you are a police officer and may have to shoot someone in a car), again, I would lean towards the larger or more powerful rounds. [emphasis added]

    Conclusion
    This study took me a long time and a lot of effort to complete. Despite the work it took, I'm glad I did it. The results I got from the study lead me to believe that there really isn't that much difference between most defensive handgun rounds and calibers. None is a death ray, but most work adequately...even the lowly .22s. I've stopped worrying about trying to find the "ultimate" bullet. There isn't one. And I've stopped feeling the need to strap on my .45 every time I leave the house out of fear that my 9mm doesn't have enough "stopping power." Folks, carry what you want. Caliber really isn't all that important.
    Take a look at the data. I hope it helps you decide what weapon to carry. No matter which gun you choose, pick one that is reliable and train with it until you can get fast accurate hits. Nothing beyond that really matters!
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  12. #72
    Senior Member Array jem102's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcon67 View Post
    Ive just got into the .40 and not good enough with it to carry it yet. But I do love to shoot it and I will get better with it. For now tho, I trust my ticker to the 9mm.
    It takes some time to master the.40. Keep training and it will become second nature just like your 9. It actually took me longer to become competent with my G27 .40 than my .45's. Two years ago I got a G23 that I keep charged with 165 GD's. End of story that pistol just flat out works for me.
    But if you can't get a handle on your .40 your 9 surely won't let you down with the ammo that's available today especially if you can make hits with it and not the .40. Good luck.
    Who is John Galt?

    Sometimes there's justice, sometimes there's just us...

  13. #73
    Ex Member Array tcon67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jem102 View Post
    It takes some time to master the.40. Keep training and it will become second nature just like your 9. It actually took me longer to become competent with my G27 .40 than my .45's. Two years ago I got a G23 that I keep charged with 165 GD's. End of story that pistol just flat out works for me.
    But if you can't get a handle on your .40 your 9 surely won't let you down with the ammo that's available today especially if you can make hits with it and not the .40. Good luck.
    Thanks. Yeah I have absolutely no worries with my 9. The frustrating thing with the .40 is I can put a couple of mags out of it right where they need to go. Then the next time its nowhere close. Its my consistency that concerns me. With my 9, when I draw it, I'm pretty darned sure where the round is going to hit, and it seldom lets me down, regardless of the load Im shooting. I feel perfectly fine with my 9 loaded with Win. 124+p talons.

  14. #74
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by defensive007 View Post
    What are your thoughts?
    if you are proficient with 9mm and your shot placement is good, the answer to your question is YES. /thread

  15. #75
    VIP Member Array SpencerB's Avatar
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    Yes shot placement with whatever caliber you use is key.
    jem102 likes this.
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