Does 9mm have enough stopping power? - Page 7

Does 9mm have enough stopping power?

This is a discussion on Does 9mm have enough stopping power? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by onacoma I've attached a FBI follow up report on a shooting. 3 Officers and 1 Bad Guy. Bad Guy a 45acp, Officers ...

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Thread: Does 9mm have enough stopping power?

  1. #91
    Distinguished Member Array skysoldier29's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onacoma View Post
    I've attached a FBI follow up report on a shooting. 3 Officers and 1 Bad Guy. Bad Guy a 45acp, Officers used 40 S & W and .223/5.56. As this shows placement is everything!

    NOT FOR THE FAINT OF HEART!
    Very nice. I like how the GDs look expanded on the xray.


  2. #92
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    I didn't say that. Your conclusion isn't logical. I simply said 380s were lethal.
    It Is Easy To Be Brave From A Distance ~ Aesop

  3. #93
    Ex Member Array apvbguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skysoldier29 View Post
    I don't think a medical examiners point of view on how efficient a particular round is in killing someone and how fast has any baring on how effective a 9mm round is. I don't think that self defense with any sort of weapon is about killing someone else. When you are talking about using a tool such as a gun or knife or other deadly object in protecting ones self, someone is likely going to either be killed or seriously injured. Stopping a treat against your life can mean anything from posturing yourself to show the BG that you can protect yourself to firing possible lethal shots.
    the ME's point was that he has seen hundreds of gun shot victims, all shot by various calibers, the point is that any caliber is capable of killing someone. while I wouldn't make a habit of carrying a .22 as a sd weapon, a .22 is better than nothing

  4. #94
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    I've noticed something, nobody who claims 9mm isn't powerful enough to stop or kill someone has volunteered to get shot by one. If it was such a weak caliber, let yourself get shot and prove 9mm carriers wrong. Just sayin'......

  5. #95
    Member Array trayzor's Avatar
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    Had a friend who knew a guy that had a friend who got hit by a semi at 65 mph and lived. Walked away from the accident. Next day his friend went out to pick up the paper and was hit by a girl on a trike. Killed him instantly! Must have been a prefect shot!
    MikeNice likes this.
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  6. #96
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    This is a direct post from DocGKR on M4Carbine.net, specifically here: 9 mm 124 gr testing - M4Carbine.net Forums

    "As noted previously, there is a great thread on this very issue over at LF: http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a...4120595763/p/1.

    I wrote the following:

    Quote:
    After doing wound ballistic research and post-shooting incident analysis since 1989, I've come to the following conclusions:

    For CCW and most urban LE duty, there are a lot of advantages in carrying a 9mm--easy to shoot one handed, relatively inexpensive to practice with, lots of bullets. Downside is less robust intermediate barrier capability.

    While I am not a big fan of the .357 Sig, if I was issued one and had lots of free ammunition available, I would have no issues about carrying one on a daily basis, however I don't like the blast, weapon wear issues, or cost of ammo. And yes, it is a solution to a non-existent problem...

    If I was in a place that issued free .40, was doing a lot of work around vehicles, or had to worry about potentially stopping larger aggressive animals and couldn't generally carry a large bore revolver, I'd be strongly tempted to carry a .40--lots of 180 gr JHP's that do well against intermediate barriers is a good thing. Generally .40's can be harder to learn to shoot well than 9mm or even .45 ACP for many folks. In addition, there are fewer well designed, reliable, durable, accurate .40 pistols on the market.

    .45 GAP...

    The nice aspects of .45 ACP are that it makes large holes, can be very accurate, offers good penetration of some common intermediate barriers, and is what the 1911 is optimally chambered for. Unfortunately, magazine capacity is less than ideal, .45 ACP is more expensive to practice with, and in general is harder to shoot well compared with 9mm. A .45 ACP makes the most sense in states with idiotic 10 rd magazine restrictions, in places that give you lots of free .45 ACP ammo, or in situations where modern expanding ammunition is restricted due to asinine, illogical regulations.

    There was once a very experienced individual who posted here at LF, a veritable tactical rock star, who had the distinction of having carried a 9mm, .40, and .45 ACP into combat during various phases of his career. He was a huge fan of the inherent shootability of John Browing's .45 ACP creation, but acknowledged that the plastic commie G19 was easier to carry and quite reliable. Eventually he began to use the .40 and found it worked very well--lots of bullets that hit hard. He wrote:

    Quote:
    "Some people want to make up for their training short falls with a gun that recoils less. OK, but at least call a spade a ******* spade. Ask yourself which bullet you would rather get shot with. You can show up with ANY 9mm platform you want, and I will bring .40 and if you are not master class bad ass, I will burn you down on a shot timer with full power duty ammo. Recoil management is a nice skill to learn. Other wise I would have just taken up eye socket shooting with a .22 magnum. .40 costs an ass load, but if the ammo fairy allows you to train, then .40 should not hold you back on your split times or shot placement...Ballistic tests on 9mm vs .40? Sorry I just can't buy it. That .40 is smoking hot."


    I am quite comfortable with both 9 mm and .45 ACP--the full-size M&P45 w/ambi-safety I am currently using has been completely reliable since it replaced the 1911 I carried from 1986 through 2010, as is the G19 I CCW. However, for uniformed LE Patrol duty use, especially around vehicles, I prefer the .40 cartridge--15+1 offers a lot of bullets; 180 gr has enough mass for intermediate barrier penetration without as much deflection as 9mm and to ensure adequate penetration in tissue AFTER first defeating barriers. The M&P40 is the softest shooting, most controllable, and completely reliable .40 S&W pistol I have yet used; in addition, it is available with the manual safety that I prefer on a LE duty pistol. For those reasons, the M&P40 w/ambi-safety would be my pistol of choice for uniformed LE Patrol duty."
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  7. #97
    Distinguished Member Array onacoma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skysoldier29 View Post
    Very nice. I like how the GDs look expanded on the xray.
    While they expanded they did not penetrate deep enough to stop the BG. While I have none to share, the X-Rays of Ranger Ts in 9mm +P+ flavor seem to impress the local ME when he does his due diligence. He's stated he can tell the difference when reading the stars.

    Again Location, Location, Location, of your shoot placement!


    In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm and three or more is a congress. -- John Adams

    If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's free! -- P.J. O'Rourke

  8. #98
    VIP Member Array Gene83's Avatar
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    In pistol calibers especially, there just isn't a definitive answer as to which is the ideal caliber that will stop an individual 100% of the time. That's just my opinion, but I know that Gabrielle Giffords survived being shot in the head with a 9 mm Glock. Robert Kennedy was killed with a .22 revolver. Those are two high profile shootings with a marked contrast in calibers.

    Admittedly, advances in trauma medicine helped Giffords. Today, a gunshot victim who makes it to the emergency room alive has a 70-90% chance of survival.

    However, "stopping power" is simply the infliction of sufficient trauma to make the attacker discontinue his attack. In that respect, I think the bigger and deeper the hole, the better.
    "The superior man, when resting in safety, does not forget that danger may come." ~ Confucius

  9. #99
    Member Array Timezoneguy's Avatar
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    I think we spend too much time trying to defend the perfect round and not nearly enough time getting really good at shooting it! Three misses with my .45 will not do as much good as 1 hit with your 9mm. Get my point?
    In a gun fight, you can not miss fast enough, to catch up.

  10. #100
    Senior Member Array Chief1297's Avatar
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    Absolutely not!!
    Equality does not exist in the real world - it is a fiction to help the self esteem of those people who consistently fail to succeed.
    Retired SF(SP) CMSgt 1979-2005

  11. #101
    Ex Member Array tcon67's Avatar
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    I've got a dead horse over here !!! Does anybody have a stick ?????

  12. #102
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    I'd say that it's certainly adequate, and when dished out like it probably should be due to the situation, I'd say that it's more than adequate; so are all the other popular defense rounds.







    Don't shoot the horse, shoot the rider.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." – Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." – Thomas Jefferson

  13. #103
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onacoma View Post
    While they expanded they did not penetrate deep enough to stop the BG.
    Isn't the BG ultimately dead now? Seems to have worked as intended.

  14. #104
    New Member Array Copefree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onacoma View Post
    While they expanded they did not penetrate deep enough to stop the BG...
    Did you read the report?

    At the bottom of the report it clearly states that the 180gr .40 Gold Dots worked very well (to FBI standards) and the .223 failed.


    The top of the report was the inaccurate information that they proved wrong at the bottom.

  15. #105
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    I have a friend that works at the morgue. He recommends 40SW. He has made the statement that he has seem a BG shot in the head with a 9mm and live. But with the 40SW there is no need for a brain saw. Now knowing this I will still be carrying a 9mm. Because I don't want to fall into the trap of too much gun. Like a local LEO told me it is better to shoot the BG with a pistol than a shotgun in home defense. Because with the shotgun, you know you are going to hit the BG and most likely kill the BG. ( Could be considered PRE MEDITATED ) Just saying....


    Mark

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