Does 9mm have enough stopping power?

This is a discussion on Does 9mm have enough stopping power? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Double_Tap Because I don't want to fall into the trap of too much gun. Like a local LEO told me it is ...

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Thread: Does 9mm have enough stopping power?

  1. #106
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double_Tap View Post
    Because I don't want to fall into the trap of too much gun. Like a local LEO told me it is better to shoot the BG with a pistol than a shotgun in home defense. Because with the shotgun, you know you are going to hit the BG and most likely kill the BG. ( Could be considered PRE MEDITATED ) Just saying....


    Mark
    This is illogical.

    Owning a shotgun and using it in/for SD/HD cannot be considered premeditation once the legal definition of premeditation is understood. The legal definition according to the "'Lectric Law Library," defines premeditation as follows:

    "With planning or deliberation. The amount of time needed for premeditation regarding an act depends on the person and the circumstances. It must be long enough, after forming the intent to act, for the person to have been fully conscious of the intent and to have considered the act.

    A design formed to commit a crime or to do some other thing before it is done.

    Premeditation differs essentially from will, which constitutes the crime, because it supposes besides an actual will, a deliberation and a continued persistance which indicate more perversity. The preparation of arms or other instruments required for the execution of the crime, are indications of a premeditation, but are not absolute proof of it, as these preparations may have been intended for other purposes, and then suddenly changed to the performance of the criminal act. Murder by poisoning must of necessity be done with premeditation."

    Source: http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/p075.htm

    You cannot, therefore, be charged with premeditation unless you previously planned on committing a crime. Planning for a self defense scenario is NOT the same as planning to commit a crime, in that self defense is NEVER a crime. Sure, you can be wrongly convicted, but a justified act of SD is never a crime, even if I was using a Barret M107 .50 caliber rifle for SD.
    Last edited by AZ Hawk; October 6th, 2011 at 08:22 PM. Reason: Added Source
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  3. #107
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double_Tap View Post
    Because with the shotgun, you know you are going to hit the BG and most likely kill the BG. ( Could be considered PRE MEDITATED ) Just saying....
    I see someone's been getting their legal education in a box of cracker jacks.

  4. #108
    VIP Member Array zonker1986's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double_Tap View Post
    I have a friend that works at the morgue. He recommends 40SW. He has made the statement that he has seem a BG shot in the head with a 9mm and live. But with the 40SW there is no need for a brain saw. Now knowing this I will still be carrying a 9mm. Because I don't want to fall into the trap of too much gun. Like a local LEO told me it is better to shoot the BG with a pistol than a shotgun in home defense. Because with the shotgun, you know you are going to hit the BG and most likely kill the BG. ( Could be considered PRE MEDITATED ) Just saying....
    Mark

    no offense sir, but your LEO friend is talking out his.....other mouth. Look elsewhere for your firearms self defense information. It would be pretty hard in a home defense situation to be accused of "pre-meditation". I don't know too many folk here in Orlando that planned their own home invasion, and due to the Florida Castle Doctrine, even if they shot the home invaders with 20mm cannon, it would be a clean shoot. Remington 870 is my home defense shottie that I hope I never have to use, but if I have to use it.....yes I want the BG's DRT. If that is considered "pre-meditation" from a legal standpoint.....so be it. Yes, I fully intend for whoever comes in my home with violent intent to go out in a body bag...just the way I had planned.
    Kimbers are the guns you show your friends....Glocks are the ones you show your enemies.

  5. #109
    Distinguished Member Array onacoma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    I see someone's been getting their legal education in a box of cracker jacks.
    MitchellCT why do you demean "Cracker Jacks" that way! They alway provide hours of fun for our Grandkids and Great Grandkids! And the inculded prizes last about an hour. We alway give our Grandkids two boxes each when their parents pick them up to make sure they get their proper sugar rush on the way home! What that saying about pay back?

    I think it was more the Bloomberg school for Legal Weapons!


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  6. #110
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    True, but not when you add the hollow point to the equation....

    It dumps a large amount of it's energy on impact, unless it gets clogged that is..



    But the fact remains that it can only dump the amount of energy it has available per the quoted formula. Hollowpoints do not "add" energy. If they expand before exiting they do apply more of that energy to the target.
    Most quality hollowpoint ammo is going to expand and desired, so it still comes down to how much energy it produces verses how far it penetrates.
    For me I chose the 40 caliber because its faster than a 45 and its larger than a 9mm. I carry 180 grain hollowpoints because I want the most penetration I can get from proven SD ammo.

  7. #111
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zonker1986 View Post

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Originally Posted by Pointblank
    I am a retired LEO. I was on the job for 32 years. If I had a dollar for everyone I saw shot to death with just a .380 I could buy a nice steak dinner.

    then you must have been totally comfortable carrying a .380ACP as your primary duty weapon, right?
    I took it to mean that in all those years he did not see enough people shot dead with a .380 to afford a steak AND LOBSTER dinner.

  8. #112
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    I took it to mean that in all those years he did not see enough people shot dead with a .380 to afford a steak AND LOBSTER dinner.
    Once again, if anyone thinks a .380 is such an anemic caliber, volunteer to get shot by one.

  9. #113
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    Once again, if anyone thinks a .380 is such an anemic caliber, volunteer to get shot by one.
    And once again, I'll point out that that is a ridiculous argument to make in favor of any cartridge/caliber out there.

    A few seconds of critical thought should make it painfully obvious as to why.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

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    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  10. #114
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
    And once again, I'll point out that that is a ridiculous argument to make in favor of any cartridge/caliber out there.

    A few seconds of critical thought should make it painfully obvious as to why.
    About as ridiculous as saying a certain caliber isn't deadly enough when facts prove otherwise.

  11. #115
    eb
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    The only thing I learned when doing my own research about "stopping power" was that there are no absolutes. Its not hard to find plenty of cases where a .22 killed somebody in a single shot, and a 45 acp was unable to after multiple shots, and vice versa. IMHO, being able to hit your target regardless of what you're carrying is the most important thing. I personally believe the 9mm has plenty of power for self-defense, and I carry one often. I subscribe to the "carry the biggest caliber with the largest number of bullets possible" theory. For me in the warmer months, that winds up being a 9mm. When I can conceal a full-sized gun, I carry a 45 acp. I own a single 380 (TCP) and rarely carry it, but its nice to have for throwing in the pocket on rare occasion. I don't own any .40 caliber guns simply because I don't feel like I need one.
    gottabkiddin likes this.

  12. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saber View Post
    As it turns out, getting shot with any bullet hurts like' the dickens. Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to carry 9mm 147gr and feel completely confident.
    plus one. getting shot with any gun, no matter the size can kill you. seen several killed on the job with 22 lr and 25 acp. seen several shot with other sizes and they were back home several days later. it come down to shot placement and how many rounds you get on target.
    An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.

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  13. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    About as ridiculous as saying a certain caliber isn't deadly enough when facts prove otherwise.
    Perhaps you missed my post where I said nothing of the sort.

    And I couldn't give a flying whoop about cartridge "lethality"...only dilettantes talk about a lethal a cartridge is.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  14. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
    And I couldn't give a flying whoop about cartridge "lethality"...only dilettantes talk about a lethal a cartridge is.
    Guess Mas Ayoob and other experts are dilettantes then huh? You might feel differently when you really need your ammo to save your life (God forbid).

  15. #119
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    Guess Mas Ayoob and other experts are dilettantes then huh? You might feel differently when you really need your ammo to save your life (God forbid).
    No, then I want a round that is good a rapidly STOPPING my assailant. I couldn't care less if they live through the experience or not, just as long as the stop what they're doing that makes me decide to shoot them.

    And I've never read Mas say anything about how lethal a cartridge is. A good stopper, yes...

    The only folks I tend to hear yammering about how "lethal" a cartridge is are manufacturers of gimmick rounds and folks who don't know what they're talking about.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  16. #120
    Member Array johnbergsing's Avatar
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    Yes, the 9mm has plenty of stopping power for defense. But as with every other caliber, the main factor in stopping a bad guy is shot placement. Hit the vitals and he is out of the fight. Of course, regardless of caliber, there will always be those guys who need more "encouragement" from your weapon to give up.

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