Faster bullet, or more energy?

This is a discussion on Faster bullet, or more energy? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; While I agree with most all that has been said consider follow up shots. If your second shot can be faster and/or more accurate with ...

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Thread: Faster bullet, or more energy?

  1. #16
    Member Array Timezoneguy's Avatar
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    While I agree with most all that has been said consider follow up shots. If your second shot can be faster and/or more accurate with a lighter bullet ( less recoil) than one with a heavier recoil I favor the lighter bullet.
    In a gun fight, you can not miss fast enough, to catch up.

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  3. #17
    mkh
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    Quote Originally Posted by zonker1986 View Post
    I always carry the round with the heavier bullet. 230 gr will always have better penetration than the 165 gr load.

    here is a video of Corbon Self Defense Ammo being fired into ballistic gelatin....note how the .45 165 gr round fragments and has poor penetration, while the 230 gr just cruises on through.
    Of special note to our Mousegunners here.....check out the penetration of the .380 90gr JHP....best I've ever seen, and my carry load in both my P-3AT and LCP I carry as BUGS.

    CORBON Self Defense JHP Product Demonstration Video - YouTube
    That was some neat video.

    What impressed me the most was the .308 bullet at the end. It sure did a number on that gelatin.
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  4. #18
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zonker1986 View Post
    I always carry the round with the heavier bullet. 230 gr will always have better penetration than the 165 gr load.

    here is a video of Corbon Self Defense Ammo being fired into ballistic gelatin....note how the .45 165 gr round fragments and has poor penetration, while the 230 gr just cruises on through.
    Of special note to our Mousegunners here.....check out the penetration of the .380 90gr JHP....best I've ever seen, and my carry load in both my P-3AT and LCP I carry as BUGS.

    CORBON Self Defense JHP Product Demonstration Video - YouTube
    I wouldn't place much emphasis on that Corbon DPX load. (BTW, it's actually 160gr, as Barnes doesn't make a 165gr .45 ACP TAC-XP bullet).

    M/LE TAC-XP Pistol Bullets | Barnes Bullets

    The 185gr +P .45 ACP Corbon DPX on the other hand performs VERY well.

    http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Ballist...5gr_TAC-XP.pdf

    As does the 9mm 115gr +P.

    http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Ballist...5gr_TAC-XP.pdf

    And so on and so forth.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  5. #19
    RKM
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    DPX is a proven "light weight" round. Otherwise, I'd stick to heavy for caliber.

    And when it comes to energy as far as handgun ammo goes, it's such a little difference, it hardly matters. Handguns are underpowered anyway. Energy only matters when it comes to rifles. Rifle ammo relies on speed and energy for it's damage where as handgun ammo relies on it's design and size. That's just my opinion.

  6. #20
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    RMag, the theory with the 357 was the bullet, 125 jsp, would expend all energy in the body, which it did, leading up to all the " hydrostatic shock" argument and debate of the late 80s and early 90s.

    Over penetration is a very real possibility, but I think much over rated, as far as the hitting the innocent bystander is concerned.

    The 357 mag in the 125 weight loading is a good example of velocity making up for weight and caliber. But it had it's draw backs.
    Care to satisfy my curiosity about the "draw backs".

  7. #21
    Member Array gunsnroses's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolvingMag View Post
    My question is which would be better?
    This is what I know about kinetic energy and knock down. If you shoot a morning dove with a .22lr at 900-1200fps...the dove will fall off the tree to the ground. If you shoot the same morning dove with a .17HMR at 2500fps...you are left with just feathers. This is personal experience.

    A 260gr bullet at 900fps from a 1911 is a lot less powerful then a 60gr bullet at 4000fps from a 30-06.

    A one mile diameter asteroid at 50,000 mph will destroy the earth?

    Just food for thought?
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  8. #22
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    Care to satisfy my curiosity about the "draw backs".
    Muzzle blast and recoil, in real magnum loadings, some are sensitive to it. Double action trigger pull is harder to master. No draw backs to the cartridge itself. Of course you are already knew this, you just didnt know where I was coming from. Sorry for the confusion.

    But then there is a difference in the way it performs with the newer style fully jacketed HP that is the norm for the day compared to the exposed lead HPs back in the day.
    Magnum likes this.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Muzzle blast and recoil, in real magnum loadings, some are sensitive to it. Double action trigger pull is harder to master. No draw backs to the cartridge itself. Of course you are already knew this, you just didnt know where I was coming from. Sorry for the confusion.

    But then there is a difference in the way it performs with the newer style fully jacketed HP that is the norm for the day compared to the exposed lead HPs back in the day.
    Just thought you may have re-written the laws of physics. J/K

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array TonyDTrigger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    The 10mm is probably over kill in it's original loadings for people. For people it is probably the only bullet I would reduce in weight, probably to 155 grns. Even the 135 grns at 1600 fps would be create a real internal mess.
    Since sectional density always favors the smaller caliber in similar weights, the 10mm would be ok lighter.

    I'm not sure anything is for certain, given so many variables that may possibly be encountered, but I think by adhering to certain rules we can create a much desired consistancy in performance.

    I was just about create a thread to post a similar question regarding 10mm for home defense. This helped me make my decision. Thx, and thanks to RevolvingMag for posting the question (don't mean to highjack your thread)
    Ballistics : 1475fps / 725 ft.lbs 150 gr Duble Tap Ammo.

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I think that the saying that handguns are underpowered is a saying that has been going on too long also without anybody questioning it. It is very subjective. I have killed African plains animals weighing well over 1200 lbs with a revolver that had a 4 5/8 inch tube. And that was over 100 yards. So, how are they underpowered?

    This is certainly not a statement of fact, at least by those who know better. I for one would like to see this one nipped in the bud.

    RKM, I am not pointing a finger at you as this is a common statement passed around. But it is simply not true. A handgun loaded correctly and shot right will stop someone pronto.
    Magnum likes this.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  12. #26
    RKM
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I think that the saying that handguns are underpowered is a saying that has been going on too long also without anybody questioning it. It is very subjective. I have killed African plains animals weighing well over 1200 lbs with a revolver that had a 4 5/8 inch tube. And that was over 100 yards. So, how are they underpowered?

    This is certainly not a statement of fact, at least by those who know better. I for one would like to see this one nipped in the bud.

    RKM, I am not pointing a finger at you as this is a common statement passed around. But it is simply not true. A handgun loaded correctly and shot right will stop someone pronto.
    Well, I guess it really depends on what we're talking about, what the firearm is being used for. If it's and all out firefight, yes, a pistol is under powered. I want a rifle. A handgun will almost always be underpowered compared to a rifle. But if theoretically speaking I'm going up against guys with sling shots, a pistol is certainly enough. I agree a handgun loaded correctly will stop someone, easily, but no easier than a rifle loaded correctly.

  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKM View Post
    Well, I guess it really depends on what we're talking about, what the firearm is being used for. If it's and all out firefight, yes, a pistol is under powered. I want a rifle. A handgun will almost always be underpowered compared to a rifle. But if theoretically speaking I'm going up against guys with sling shots, a pistol is certainly enough. I agree a handgun loaded correctly will stop someone, easily, but no easier than a rifle loaded correctly.
    What we're talking about are defense type situations. Gman simply used a hunting reference as a example that handguns do have power. A pistol in capable hands can and will stop either a rifleman or a slingshot man.

  14. #28
    Distinguished Member Array Doghandler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    ... A handgun loaded correctly and shot right will stop someone pronto.
    Good point. Rounds should always be loaded so as to face the bullet forward. My tendency is low and left but I try hard to shoot right.



    You're on a roll, Mr. glockman10mm, "The only reason to go faster lighter is for trajectory issues." I can't disagree with that.

    Hmmm... I wonder how this argument would change if we could find ammo with depleted uranium inserts in the hollow point?


  15. #29
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    A handgun loaded correctly and shot right will stop someone pronto.
    You and I both know that simply isn't true. There have been multiple shootings in which the BGs have taken multiple rounds COM with proven calibers and ammunition but have been able to continue fighting as the human body is very resilient under the right conditions. Ever heard of someone getting shot but not bleeding AT ALL until the fight was over?
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    You and I both know that simply isn't true. There have been multiple shootings in which the BGs have taken multiple rounds COM with proven calibers and ammunition but have been able to continue fighting as the human body is very resilient under the right conditions. Ever heard of someone getting shot but not bleeding AT ALL until the fight was over?
    Just like there are cases of people taking multiple rifle rounds and not going down instantly. There are no absolutes except maybe .338 Lapua Magnum and .50 BMG. :)
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

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