Faster bullet, or more energy?

This is a discussion on Faster bullet, or more energy? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The scenarios that we have heard about are in my opinion a drop in the bucket compared to the instances where the handgun put people ...

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  1. #31
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    The scenarios that we have heard about are in my opinion a drop in the bucket compared to the instances where the handgun put people down with good effect.

    I believe that the idea that the handgun is weak stemmed from the need of gun rags isolating and blowing them out of porportion to sell magazines by creating controversy.

    I could just as easily say that it took 2 shots fired from a high powered rifle, and one being a head shot to kill Kennedy, but it only took one 38spl round to the abdominal area of Oswald.
    If I recall, there were no designer bullets available for handguns back then.

    But the truth is that common thugs kill each other and innocents every day with small caliber chambered guns carrying ammo that many of you would dismiss as ineffective.
    Magnum and mauser1959 like this.
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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    You and I both know that simply isn't true. There have been multiple shootings in which the BGs have taken multiple rounds COM with proven calibers and ammunition but have been able to continue fighting as the human body is very resilient under the right conditions. Ever heard of someone getting shot but not bleeding AT ALL until the fight was over?
    AZ Hawk;

    COM is an awfully large area. Physiologically speaking, all parts within that area aren't equal in function. An assailant may want to continue fighting but when the central nervous system sustains gross damage or blood pressure is dropped instantly and catastrophically he will be rendered incapable of fighting. A handgun round is capable of accomplishing that kind of damage with proper shot placement.
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    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

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  4. #33
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    I don't see what the difference would be in a Wally World parking lot in a situation with 5-15 feet of distance? Both are going to leave a mark.
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  5. #34
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    Ya' think, retsupt99?
    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

  6. #35
    Member Array Magnum's Avatar
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    I'd compromise and go for the .44 spl.240 gr. SJHP.

  7. #36
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    AZ Hawk;

    COM is an awfully large area. Physiologically speaking, all parts within that area aren't equal in function. An assailant may want to continue fighting but when the central nervous system sustains gross damage or blood pressure is dropped instantly and catastrophically he will be rendered incapable of fighting. A handgun round is capable of accomplishing that kind of damage with proper shot placement.
    That wasn't my point, nor did I say otherwise.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

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  8. #37
    Senior Member Array SFury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    But the truth is that common thugs kill each other and innocents every day with small caliber chambered guns carrying ammo that many of you would dismiss as ineffective.
    I'm not certain I'd say ineffective. I'd say less than ideal with what ammo is available now. Let's face it, your traditional lead ball rounds have killed so many people and animals compared to modern ammunition there is no room to say they aren't effective rounds.

    For all those that die, many still live too. The only real question is, if they used better SD ammo would more of the people shot die? Not something that can be tested reliably, nor do I actually want to see that question get tested to be perfectly honest.

  9. #38
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    Incapacitating the threat quickly is important for survival. Poor shot placement or less effective caliber hits may probably eventually kill, eventually. Anything that can be done to increase the instant incapacitation probability is only logical. Many gang bangers are skinny kids putting each other down with multiple 380 rounds. I want to be prepared for a 300 pound meth freak who feels no pain. From my 3" 45 I have chronographed 185gr Cor Bon DPX at 1050fps or 450 ft/lbs. On the range I try to duplicate the felt recoil using 230 gr FMJ at around 820 fps. With practice, controlled follow up shots aren't much slower with the 45 than those with a 9mm. IMHO handgun velocity variations aren't as important as heavy weight bullets with good expansion capability.
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  10. #39
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFury View Post
    I'm not certain I'd say ineffective. I'd say less than ideal with what ammo is available now. Let's face it, your traditional lead ball rounds have killed so many people and animals compared to modern ammunition there is no room to say they aren't effective rounds.

    For all those that die, many still live too. The only real question is, if they used better SD ammo would more of the people shot die? Not something that can be tested reliably, nor do I actually want to see that question get tested to be perfectly honest.
    First, whoever said they were "ineffective?"

    Second, no handgun caliber is "ineffective" if it destroys something vital like the CNS or heart.

    My argument was basically your second sentence, where you said, "I'd say less than ideal with what ammo is available now." Some are more ideal than others, and I would never carry ball ammo unless ball ammo was the only available ammunition. The reason being if a hollow point gets plugged, which is highly unlikely with a premium load, it's still just as effective as ball. Any hollow point that gets plugged in heavy clothing or breaks by hitting a Zippo is a s****** hollow point as ALL the premium hollow points on the market (Federal HST, Win Ranger-T, Speer Gold Dot, Corbon DPX) will penetrate steel with little fragmentation; yes, they generally don't expand much (if at all) after hitting steel, but they don't break apart.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

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  11. #40
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    If I shoot someone 5 times with my 9mm and a 115gr bullet, is that the same as shooting them with a 575 grain bullet?

  12. #41
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    If I shoot someone 5 times with my 9mm and a 115gr bullet, is that the same as shooting them with a 575 grain bullet?
    Only if shot out of a 1911.

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    If I shoot someone 5 times with my 9mm and a 115gr bullet, is that the same as shooting them with a 575 grain bullet?
    Not much you can do with that.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    If I shoot someone 5 times with my 9mm and a 115gr bullet, is that the same as shooting them with a 575 grain bullet?
    Heck no... more like shooting them with a 575 grain shotgun shell. If you put 5 holes in somebody the probability of hitting something vital is substantially higher than if you shot them with a single .44 mag. A spine hit with a .22 cal is worth way more that a .45 cal hole through nothing but soft flesh.

    That's exactly why Rob Pincus and other "experts" are now leaning toward capacity over caliber.

    Hey Glockman10mm were you aware that an African Bull elephant is sneaking up on you?
    Last edited by BioGLoCK23; October 16th, 2011 at 02:54 PM.

  15. #44
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    It's actually a cow. And African game hunters know the difference in using smaller faster vs bigger slower.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  16. #45
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    The .357 has almost always been the benchmark for a protection round. Personally it's the only round that starts with a "3" that I would carry. As seems to be in agreement here, bullet weight is the key. The only advantage I can see to high velocity is that most studies seem to show that it takes 1,000 FPS to get reliable expansion from a hollow point handgun round. I'm not sure that's true with some of the new designs in frangible bullets, but it might be a consideration with some ammunition.

    The .45 ACP has served me well since the '60s in a couple of nasty incidents. I have yet to find a lighter, faster, smaller "magic" bullet that can break the laws of physics, so I think I'll be a dinosaur and stay with something I have confidence in.
    Cogito, ergo armatum sum

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