critical defense/ short barrels

This is a discussion on critical defense/ short barrels within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Eaglebeak However, there have been a significant number of recorded events where a low-velocity, expanding-type bullet has failed to do much (if ...

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Thread: critical defense/ short barrels

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglebeak View Post
    However, there have been a significant number of recorded events where a low-velocity, expanding-type bullet has failed to do much (if any) damage to an assailant wearing a thick coat, multiple-layers of clothing or in the event the bullet strikes a belt or other externally-worn object which causes it to expand or fragment prematurely and do very little physical penetration into the body itself; so in this scenario, the solid ball ammo would be superior.
    I'd love to see all these "recorded events." Do you have a link or two or three?
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

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  3. #17
    Member Array Eaglebeak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    I'd love to see all these "recorded events." Do you have a link or two or three?
    I apologize that my life and major hobby does not circle around keeping a library of links or a scrapbook filled with old newspaper clippings. One incident was a few months ago in Dallas where a teenager's neck mediallion saved his life by stopping a 9mm hollowpoint from a driveby shooter. Smoking may be hazardous to my health, but I can personally attest (with a few scars) from a past stint in law enforcement when my trusty Zippo fragmented a .357 hollowpoint that (according to the ER surgeon) would have otherwishave broken my leg, severed my femoral artery and had me on a morgue slab instead of a hospital gurney. The bullet came from the gun (only by reflex-action) of the perp I'd just drilled through the forehead as he was being knocked backward by the impact.

    As a note, NO, I didn't keep the newspaper clipping of that incident either since it's an unpleasant memory that I don't like bringing up.

  4. #18
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglebeak View Post
    I apologize that my life and major hobby does not circle around keeping a library of links or a scrapbook filled with old newspaper clippings. One incident was a few months ago in Dallas where a teenager's neck mediallion saved his life by stopping a 9mm hollowpoint from a driveby shooter. Smoking may be hazardous to my health, but I can personally attest (with a few scars) from a past stint in law enforcement when my trusty Zippo fragmented a .357 hollowpoint that (according to the ER surgeon) would have otherwishave broken my leg, severed my femoral artery and had me on a morgue slab instead of a hospital gurney. The bullet came from the gun (only by reflex-action) of the perp I'd just drilled through the forehead as he was being knocked backward by the impact.

    As a note, NO, I didn't keep the newspaper clipping of that incident either since it's an unpleasant memory that I don't like bringing up.
    No need to apologize as I was actually interested in seeing them.

    Thanks for sharing, and thank God for Zippo lighters. =)
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    The problem is .... given certain cirumstances, there is a bullet out there that's great for that circumstance.

    The problem is, you can't carry all of them so you have them if that particular circumstance occurs.

    So, pick one you feel works best for the most circumstances you think you may encounter, and is the least expense to yourself, and charge on.

    I think Critical Defense is fine, but so are many others. I think the "short barrel" ammo is a gimmick ammunition and marketing ploy. Down size the powder, call it better, and charge you more money. If you have a short barrel, you will loose bullet velocity, etc. anyway.... and if you buy a short barrel ammo..... you just lost more. So you just decreased the effectiveness of the round two-fold.
    Last edited by Eagleks; October 15th, 2011 at 12:45 AM.
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

  6. #20
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    Eaglebeak, I like your technique of alternating hollow points and ball ammo in the magazine.

    With winter coming on soon people will be wearing heavy coats and that can obviously be problematic for hollow point expansion. At least for my SWBG380... I'm not worried about jackets, or other garments when I'm carrying the Glock 23.

    I'm confident that the .40 cal coming out of a 4" barrel will penetrate all but a bullet proof vest. Even if it didn't penetrate the force alone would most likely be VERY unpleasant.

  7. #21
    Member Array Eaglebeak's Avatar
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    BioGLoCK23, The alternating hollowpoint and ball ammo concept I now practice evolved from (1) the same alternating 00-Buck and rifled-slug concept in a riot shottie that's been practiced by most law enforcement agencies since Moses was a kid, and (2) from the previously mentioned, nearly fatal experience I had from taking a .357 hollowpoint that fragmented upon hitting my Zippo many years ago. PS - the Zippo also fragmented, and I don't like remembering how many bullet fragments and Zippo parts they said were surgically removed from both thighs and my lower belly (and before asking, yes "willy" earned a purple heart too).

    I certainly don't want anyone to think that a heavy coat, neck medallion or Zippo that greatly impedes or fragments a rapidly-expanding bullet is something that renders the shot ineffective by any means because the Zippo-hit I took literally knocked my leg out from under me and put me down on my face like a bison hit by lightning. But with the adrenalin still pumping and in spite of the shock from being hit by a sledgehammer, I still remember having the presence of mind to break my fall with one arm while keeping my weapon generally pointed at the perp (who was also going down) in the event that I had to squeeze off another round or two to stop the threat. If that shot to the Zippo had been ball ammo, there probably wouldn't have been any fragmentation and it most likely would have resulted in my demise from quickly bleeding out - but I would still have been able to get off a few more rounds before I took my last breath.

    The only point I'm trying to make is that alternating bullet styles between "shock/smack" and "penetrate" provides a good diversity advantage to help cover all the bases if the first (or second) shot doesn't stop the threat for whatever reason(s).

    Sorry for getting off this thread's original path, but "short-barrel" ammo is a very good idea if you're packing a short barrelled weapon. Bullet styles that have been argued are a different matter altogether because the short-barrelled ammo simply uses a much faster burning powder that will completely deliver maximum-rated breech-pressure and as much possible projectile velocity during the much shorter time the bullet is travelling down the short barrel length. Granted, slower burning powder will produce a considerably higher velocity (with respect to the same weight and style bullet at the same maximum breech-pressure); but that increased velocity is only made possible by the increasing gas pressure from the slower burning powder as the bullet is travelling down a longer barrel.

    In a very short-barrelled handgun, the bullet has already exited the barrel before the slow-burning powder has completed its burning process. So, even though the "short-barrelled" ammo with faster burning powder indicates less velocity than the "rated velocity" of a standard round, it stands to logical reasoning that said lower velocity of the short-barrelled ammo would still be higher upon bullet exit from a short barrel than what would be produced by a standard round (with slower burning powder) when the bullet exits the short barrel long before the powder has finished burning (which would only achieve the higher velocity in a longer barrelled gun).
    Grinder likes this.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Eaglebeak : I have wondered and thought about doing the very thing you just described. Thanks for the info.
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

  9. #23
    Member Array WillyNilly's Avatar
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    The CD 115 gr FTX didn't go well with my Keltec PF9. Out of 9 shots I had a casing flipped and jammed the slide open. I also had a FTE where the casing stayed in the chamber and a fresh round up against it. I got 16 left I don't know what to do with. I never saw a bullet shaped like it and probably what contributed to the problem.

    I just picked up a box of Federal Hydra-Shok 124 gr JHP standard pressure. I haven't yet tried 'em out but I think they'll be ok since they're shaped like other JHPs.

    In the meantime I carry with the Winchester PDX1 124 gr JHP +P which was proven in my gun but not recommended for my gun. Keltec used to say use +P sparingly but now they retracted the statement.

  10. #24
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    I know, I know, but I really like the idea of a solid copper hollowpoint, heavy for calibre, and loaded to max cups.....I'll get over it after I shoot up this box, cause I probably wont buy them again, maybe next I'll get me some o them Ranger T bad boy's until then....I got copper warheads and I got lead paper shooters, and coke can killers....$.02

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    You know, I love Hornady bullets as a component. But, this "Critical" Defense crap and bullets like it from other makers really gets under my skin.

    My opinion is to just fill your gun up with a good quality heavy for caliber conventional bullet and call it a day. Then you can buy 2 or 3 50 round boxes for the price of 1 twenty round box of "Critical Crap" ammo.
    The FBI likes some of the "Critical Crap" ammo. So do lots of police departments. There's data and field experience behind their opinions. They've shot a lot more BG than most of us. I've shot zero. So I'll listen to those who have experience.

    It's not just manufacturers hyping an idea for profit.

  12. #26
    Ex Member Array MP9NewMexico's Avatar
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    I don't know. Seems like the Critical Defense 165gr is a pretty good round to me.
    1175 fps out of a 3" test barrel and 505 ft/lbs of energy. I fail to see how that's "Crap".

    Hornady : Law Enforcement | Products | 40 S&W FTX™ - 40 S&W 165 gr. FTX® CRITICAL DEFENSE®

  13. #27
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    Critical Defense ammo despite it's catchy name and marketing is a loser. Far superior ammunition is available.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

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  14. #28
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    What information do you have to back that claim up SGB?

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by a__l__a__n View Post
    The FBI likes some of the "Critical Crap" ammo. So do lots of police departments. There's data and field experience behind their opinions. They've shot a lot more BG than most of us. I've shot zero. So I'll listen to those who have experience.

    It's not just manufacturers hyping an idea for profit.
    So, then share your experience with us. How did you come to this conclusion in your mind?
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  16. #30
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    While I feel that there have been advances made personal defense ammunition and expanding handgun bullet designs have improved somewhat over the past 35 years I am heartily sick of the self-perpetuating con that much the the boutique ammunition market is and just wish it would go away. At its core it feeds off of buyers' ignorance and indecisiveness.
    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

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