critical defense/ short barrels - Page 4

critical defense/ short barrels

This is a discussion on critical defense/ short barrels within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Before deciding on a particular ammo. Do some research to see which one is right for you and your carry area. I'm not a brand ...

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  1. #46
    New Member Array NRAMAN's Avatar
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    Before deciding on a particular ammo. Do some research to see which one is right for you and your carry area. I'm not a brand specific shooter as long as it is not some off the wall stuff imported for our endangerment. When making a decision on ammo, research the Relative Impact Index. Do not compare pistol and rifle ammo as the rifle shoots at a much higher velocity. A normal HP is reported to only expand in diameter by about 30%. Depending if the round hits bone or soft tissue determines the actual expansion. (This also applies to thicker outerware on people). Most handgun HP's do not produce hydralic shock nor tissue quake or create massive wounds often equated to them. The handgun HP's DO produce kinetic energy losses two to three times greater than compaired to FMJ or round nose This translates into more energy disbursed into vital organs rather than surrounding tissue. So what does this mean? FMJ and round nose are designed to penetrate, go through and penetrate someone else. HP is designed to penetrate, expand, take out vital organs and exit with most energy already released. It would seem to me that unless you are on a battle field being attacked by many aggressors requiring that you injure several with each shot...........the first choice for self defense would be a Hollow Point. Now that being said, there are many factors that can cause variations to all this information. Distance from muzzle to target, targets clothing/outerware, size of target, adrenalin content and actual placement of the rounds. Remember, people are just as dead from a round nose (lead or jacketed) as from a Hollow Point.


  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    So, then share your experience with us. How did you come to this conclusion in your mind?
    Not too hard to find. For example in this thread I see lots of Federal Tactical, Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger, Federal HydroShok, Remington Golden Saber... All premium expanding bullets. Not too many generic lead wadcutters.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by a__l__a__n View Post
    Not too hard to find. For example in this thread I see lots of Federal Tactical, Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger, Federal HydroShok, Remington Golden Saber... All premium expanding bullets. Not too many generic lead wadcutters.
    Oh, I understand now.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Oh, I understand now.
    Like I said, I haven't shot any BG myself so I take the advice of people who have. How about you?

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by boatail View Post
    I really don't care how much it costs per round. If ONE round saves my life, it's worth it to me! My line of thought is that the CD round will function more like a ball round since it's nose is filled( more reliable chambering ) and act like a hollow point downrange. I was asking originally as to it's effectivness in a short barrled pistol/revolver.
    As to the claim of " newer, better " is a sales gimmick... Civil War vets would attest to the fact that the " newer, better " conical bullet was better than the old ball round holds some truth.
    I agree that some things that are marketed are pure junk...just not sure about this
    The ironic part is that the "flex tip" Hornady installs in the hollow point cavity has actually caused less reliable feeding for some, as if the tip extends too far out of the cavity the round may get stuck and will not chamber. I've seen this happen personally in an XD.

    The best short barrel loads are the Speer Gold Dot short barrel loads, and I've also seen some promising testing of the Winchester PDX1, specifically in .380 ACP.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  6. #51
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by a__l__a__n View Post
    Like I said, I haven't shot any BG myself so I take the advice of people who have. How about you?
    Well, its something that I dont feel the need to discuss with you, but I have killed alot of stuff with various calibers and projectiles. From African plains game to whitetail deer.
    Served my country abroad and seen alot of stuff first hand. And into my 17th year of LE work, still seeing it.

    Now that in itself sure as hell dont mean I am an expert. But what I know, I didnt get from the inet or a book. But, what I have read in a book, I went out and tried to prove through practical means. An example is Elmer Keiths theory on large heavy bullets. I shot all kinds of animals with his recommended loads over the early years, and then tried modern HP ammo. Deer, hogs, gemsbok, wilderbeast, and even a rogue cow. And after all these years, I have found out Keith was correct. Reliable , predictable penetration to organs is what brings down critters. And the same principle applys to humans.

    Shooting or having shot a person or people doesnt make you anymore a ballistic expert than being a cook makes you a nutritionist.

    Heres my advice, and you can take it or leave it, just something for you to look into. Scrap all the crap about kinetic energy touted by the experts and embrace the Taylor KO formula. That is the beginning of ballistic understanding.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by a__l__a__n View Post
    Not too hard to find. For example in this thread I see lots of Federal Tactical, Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger, Federal HydroShok, Remington Golden Saber... All premium expanding bullets. Not too many generic lead wadcutters.
    Hi Alan;

    One thing to remember is that just because everyone is doing it doesn't always mean it's best. Or, just because it is said to be so doesn't make it so.

    There are many, many conceptions about things, both within the firearms field as well as all facets of life, where following the crowd, buying into the "conventional wisdom" of the day, or imitating what is "popular" is simply wrong. Perhaps, even in most cases, forming one's beliefs about something based on what others are saying or doing is wrong.

    The current federal government we have is the result of the majority of voters' beliefs and notions. Need any more be said?
    Last edited by bmcgilvray; November 2nd, 2011 at 01:46 AM.
    MP9NewMexico and scgunlover1 like this.
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  8. #53
    RKM
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    Quote Originally Posted by MP9NewMexico View Post
    RKM -

    Ammunition To Go : 20rds - 38 Special Speer Gold Dot 125gr. +P HP Ammo [23720] - $21.95

    Good reliable company, with outstanding service. I buy from them quite frequently.
    That wasn't there last night! I swear ammotogo changes day to day.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKM View Post
    That wasn't there last night! I swear ammotogo changes day to day.
    It usually changes month to month, so there might be a whole number of new goodies there!
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Well, its something that I dont feel the need to discuss with you, but I have killed alot of stuff with various calibers and projectiles. From African plains game to whitetail deer.
    Served my country abroad and seen alot of stuff first hand. And into my 17th year of LE work, still seeing it.

    Now that in itself sure as hell dont mean I am an expert. But what I know, I didnt get from the inet or a book. But, what I have read in a book, I went out and tried to prove through practical means. An example is Elmer Keiths theory on large heavy bullets. I shot all kinds of animals with his recommended loads over the early years, and then tried modern HP ammo. Deer, hogs, gemsbok, wilderbeast, and even a rogue cow. And after all these years, I have found out Keith was correct. Reliable , predictable penetration to organs is what brings down critters. And the same principle applys to humans.

    Shooting or having shot a person or people doesnt make you anymore a ballistic expert than being a cook makes you a nutritionist.

    Heres my advice, and you can take it or leave it, just something for you to look into. Scrap all the crap about kinetic energy touted by the experts and embrace the Taylor KO formula. That is the beginning of ballistic understanding.
    Put yourself in my shoes. I'm faced with deciding what some guy named glockman10mm says on the internet, or what numerous law enforcement officers say. Why should I believe you instead of them?

    I'm not planning to shoot any elephants with my Speer Gold Dots. From what I read, they are likely to penetrate to the vital organs of a BG. And when they get there, there is reason to believe they will do more damage than an unexpanded wadcutter would do. Apparently a lot of people who ought to know, and whose lives are on the line daily in the matter, agree.

    I'm not arguing for or against the Hornady CD product since I haven't seen as much discussion from experts on that one. More so, for the Gold Dots and DPX and probably a few others.

  11. #56
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    It just depends on who you choose to believe, a firearms student with an inquisitive mind and an eye for observation who also happens to be a lawman, or some purchase orders from law enforcement agencies influenced by marketing and in some cases the lowest bid.

    You have to go out in faith at some point because you don't "know" those you may look toward as being "expert." What is their real background and what does it bring to the table with regards to bullet performance savvy?

    You don't know me either but I know my own experiences and observations and Gman's remarks as he posts here square with what I've observed in using handguns for hunting and pest control over the years. He rings true in his post in a way that all the tests, charts, expert recommendations, and photographs of jello cubes with bullet tracks in them don't always ring true.

    I can say for certain that accuracy and shot placement is far more important than the obscure differences that various manufacturers feature in their bullets to promote expansion performance. Accurate shot placement rates far down the list here on the Forum though behind: expansion, round capacity, speed with which repeat shots may be delivered, how small the handgun can be made, relative bullet diameter, how heavy the handgun is, and how the handgun may "feel" in ones hand. The great unspoken ones are: how trendy is it and how will it make me look to my peers. Perhaps everyone recognizes that accurate bullet placement is a given so it receives little discussion. On the other hand, perhaps it is not considered much at all.
    Majorlk likes this.
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  12. #57
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    ALAN, I understand where you are coming from. It is not my desire or duty to convert the world to my way of thinking. However, it is my duty to challenge people to think.
    If I could put an expert on the spot, that wasn't on someone's payroll, they would tell you that what I have said is true. And, what I have said, and am saying now, is that good hardworking folks that desire to have a gun for self protection will be just as well served by a good SWC in 38spl, 44spl, 45Colt, or a ball round in 45acp.

    It simply isn't necassary to spend alot of hard earned dollars to make a hole in someone. If you notice, the calibers I listed are lower velocity calibers. Things change as velocity substantially increases.
    For instance, I would not recommend a 44 spl loaded with a 240 LSWC at a velocity of 1200fps for street work. But at 700-900 fps, it's probably the best all around SD cartridge for alot of reasons.
    Same with the 45Colt, or ACP. There is a balance to keep in mind between velocity and bullet weight.

    So I think you are in a learning curve, and that's Ok. I am still learning also. I am too.

    As an instructor with a teachers heart, I want my students to not only learn, but understand why they do what they do. Not just because I may tell or suggest. So when I ask you to support your idea, it wasn't to be a smart ass, it is just something I do, or, the way I think.
    Anyway, good luck and stay safe.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  13. #58
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    I agree with BMC and Glockman, actually.

    Just because the FBI uses it, doesn't mean it's best. The price per round clearly has something to do with it. Not by any means current, but during WWII the Japanese used a fighter plane called 'The Zero'. It was designed by an American engineer several years before WWII, and a prototype was presented to the military/pentagon/DOD. They declined to give this engineer a contract, citing 'cost reasons'. Well, since we weren't at war with Japan at the time, the engineer sold the prototype and plans to the Japanese. Turns out the plane he engineered was better than most of our fighters sent to the Pacific, and sent many a Marine/Navy aviator to a watery grave. This changed in mid-1942 when the F4U Corsair and F4F Wildcats came into service when we finally had a decent fighter.

    Point being, the government chose the company (Curtiss) with the cheaper design, awarded them the contract...and then paid the price for it.

    Quite honestly, I only purchased Hornady CD because of the hype. I have 60 rounds of Hornady CD in 165gr. I will be testing 25 of them at the range this afternoon, and I will update this thread with their performance. I will address feed reliability through an XD40 subcompact, and accuracy (though you should take this with a grain of salt, since I am new shooter, and still adjusting to .40 S&W recoil).

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    ALAN, I understand where you are coming from. It is not my desire or duty to convert the world to my way of thinking. However, it is my duty to challenge people to think.
    If I could put an expert on the spot, that wasn't on someone's payroll, they would tell you that what I have said is true. And, what I have said, and am saying now, is that good hardworking folks that desire to have a gun for self protection will be just as well served by a good SWC in 38spl, 44spl, 45Colt, or a ball round in 45acp.

    It simply isn't necassary to spend alot of hard earned dollars to make a hole in someone. If you notice, the calibers I listed are lower velocity calibers. Things change as velocity substantially increases.
    For instance, I would not recommend a 44 spl loaded with a 240 LSWC at a velocity of 1200fps for street work. But at 700-900 fps, it's probably the best all around SD cartridge for alot of reasons.
    Same with the 45Colt, or ACP. There is a balance to keep in mind between velocity and bullet weight.

    So I think you are in a learning curve, and that's Ok. I am still learning also. I am too.

    As an instructor with a teachers heart, I want my students to not only learn, but understand why they do what they do. Not just because I may tell or suggest. So when I ask you to support your idea, it wasn't to be a smart ass, it is just something I do, or, the way I think.
    Anyway, good luck and stay safe.
    I appreciate the chance to hear other points of view. I'm certainly no expert myself, though I have an engineer's approach to problem solving. My firearms experience is mainly deer hunting. I've seen the consequences of a 150 gr Nosler Partition on innumerable deer, as well as plenty of cases where lesser bullets failed to expand and zipped right through the animal. Of course both ended up dead, but some of them took quite a bit longer to reach that point. All that has convinced me of the value of an expanding bullet.

    Of course, what you and I haven't seen is the inside of all those animals that were NOT killed by the bullet because the bullet passed right through without doing lethal damage. We both know it happens.

  15. #60
    Senior Member Array boatail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MP9NewMexico View Post
    I agree with BMC and Glockman, actually.

    Just because the FBI uses it, doesn't mean it's best. The price per round clearly has something to do with it. Not by any means current, but during WWII the Japanese used a fighter plane called 'The Zero'. It was designed by an American engineer several years before WWII, and a prototype was presented to the military/pentagon/DOD. They declined to give this engineer a contract, citing 'cost reasons'. Well, since we weren't at war with Japan at the time, the engineer sold the prototype and plans to the Japanese. Turns out the plane he engineered was better than most of our fighters sent to the Pacific, and sent many a Marine/Navy aviator to a watery grave. This changed in mid-1942 when the F4U Corsair and F4F Wildcats came into service when we finally had a decent fighter.

    Point being, the government chose the company (Curtiss) with the cheaper design, awarded them the contract...and then paid the price for it.

    Quite honestly, I only purchased Hornady CD because of the hype. I have 60 rounds of Hornady CD in 165gr. I will be testing 25 of them at the range this afternoon, and I will update this thread with their performance. I will address feed reliability through an XD40 subcompact, and accuracy (though you should take this with a grain of salt, since I am new shooter, and still adjusting to .40 S&W recoil).
    If the feds are price driven, then the hornady's would definately be eliminated.
    Light travels faster than sound...thats why some people appear bright before they speak

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