SD Ammo, SD, and what it means and why

This is a discussion on SD Ammo, SD, and what it means and why within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Just wanted to add my THANKS to Glockman & Eaglebeak for sharing their wisdom!...

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Thread: SD Ammo, SD, and what it means and why

  1. #31
    Member Array sm31's Avatar
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    Just wanted to add my THANKS to Glockman & Eaglebeak for sharing their wisdom!

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  3. #32
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    I am not going to continue a conversation with someone who just can't be civil. Seems this forum more than most is full of hostile people if you don't share their viewpoint. Sad.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  4. #33
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    I am not going to continue a conversation with someone who just can't be civil. Seems this forum more than most is full of hostile people if you don't share their viewpoint. Sad.
    It's not that, so much, as people who don't (can't?) substantiate their points, and go off in a huff when confronted with some information that challenges their preconceptions.

    Me, I like heavy. Light & fast handgun rounds seem to me to depend just a wee bit too much on a not-so-well substantiated phenomenon that sometimes works, but often doesn't, where hypovolemic shock due to deep, wide wound channels works on everyone.

    But that's me.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  5. #34
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    If I have to shoot someone, I'm going with what's in the gun. I'm not reloading because the current round isn't "right" for the occasion. I'll let the recipient determine if it was the proper ammo selection or not.
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  6. #35
    Senior Member Array SFury's Avatar
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    But the point I was trying to make is very simple, but somehow not easily grasped by some.
    So, to break it down , let's say given two bullets, one lighter, one heavier, same construction and material, the heavier bullet will have better penetrating qualities.
    Not always. As I pointed out, there are other factors to consider. The shorter the barrel, the less effective heavy rounds are because they lose expansion capability.

    With the minimum length consideration used in a bullet construction, then comparing rounds for that barrel length (caliber doesn't matter here because barrel length has an immediate and dramatic effect on ballistic characteristics within the same caliber being referenced) then your statement is potentially true.

    Let's face it, some rounds are designed for shorter barreled handguns. Some are designed for full-sized handguns/rifles. The design of the bullet needs to be considered in regards to the handgun.

    The newer, shorter barreled CC guns are the exception to the heavier is better rule. As are the snubbies that have been around for a long time now. It's an important distinction that needs to be made to the rule.

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    SFury, I could not disagree more here. It doesn't matter the barrel length, a heavy bullet will always penetrate more than a light bullet given the same construction and velocity.

    It is not the newer CC guns that make a difference, but the powder used in the case, which is designed to reach peak burn quicker.

    Would you care to explain where you came up with this idea?

    Newer or older, nothing has changed in firearms barrels that give a magic speed jump to bullets.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  8. #37
    Member Array macg19's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=smolck;2054426]Pay especially close attention to 1:30 on video two where he mentions that the Cor Bon load in 9mm (115gr) comes almost as close to .357 mag in 125gr as anything. Hmmmm.

    Mas certainly is still relevant, and I took the advice of someone and bought "In the Gravest Extreme" before I bought my first handgun, which I highly recommend. I also went running out to buy Cor Bon 9mm 115gr +P for my G19, which I now only use to wake up the neighbors.

    Technology has moved on, the Internet is forever, would be cool if Mas would update some of his Text Books, I'd happily buy them again.

  9. #38
    Senior Member Array SFury's Avatar
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    Simple enough, why do rifles have optimum barrel lengths?

    Why have so many ballistic tests have been done to compare ballistic values for the the same caliber and round with one difference? Barrel length. Both for handgun and rifle rounds.

    What you will find is that the energy loss from a barrel length under 3" starts to become significant. Less energy means less expansion energy. Essentially you are turning a heavy hollow point round into a ball ammo round because it won't expand. It simply cannot because it lacks the energy to expand. If you do that, you may as well save money and buy the cheap ball ammo.

    This is where less weight actually becomes more beneficial. It requires less energy to expand. Simple physics.

    As with anything, it's a matter of balance. No two rounds are the same which also means that we have to consider the bullets design. With the advances in powder utilization rounds can be made to work with different barrel lengths. It's why some rounds are sold for use in shorter barreled weapons specifically. Their payload was meant for those weapons.

    There are no absolutes with modern day ammo. Bullets can be designed with different weights to do the same thing in different manners.

  10. #39
    Member Array a__l__a__n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    But the point I was trying to make is very simple, but somehow not easily grasped by some.
    So, to break it down , let's say given two bullets, one lighter, one heavier, same construction and material, the heavier bullet will have better penetrating qualities.
    Ok, I'll stir the heavier vs faster bullet pot one more time.

    I hand load .308 rifle with 150 gr Nosler partitions at a muzzle velocity around 2700 fps. That's a 0.30 diameter bullet, 150gr. I am saying that load is more powerful than a 200 gr bullet in a .45 cartridge on any powder charge you want to load and shoot. Smaller, lighter bullet. But dramatically more powerful and effective. But if you put a FMJ bullet in the .308, it would zip right through a deer and you'd be tracking a blood trail all afternoon. Smaller, faster, with expansion can be better.

  11. #40
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    SFury, I could not disagree more here. It doesn't matter the barrel length, a heavy bullet will always penetrate more than a light bullet given the same construction and velocity.

    It is not the newer CC guns that make a difference, but the powder used in the case, which is designed to reach peak burn quicker.

    Would you care to explain where you came up with this idea?

    Newer or older, nothing has changed in firearms barrels that give a magic speed jump to bullets.
    " a heavy bullet will always penetrate more than a light bullet given the same construction and velocity".

    No argument here. But that not we're comparing. Lighter bullet (not the lightest for caliber) pushed to a high velocity vs. a heavy( not the heaviest for caliber) loaded to a normal for caliber velocity = light bullet winning in energy on target.
    Penetration is affected by too many variables (other than the above) to be able to judge definitely.
    glockman10mm likes this.

  12. #41
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I still disagree. You can utilize a faster burning powder to get optimal burn in a short tube, and you can use a lightweight thinner HP that will expand more quickly, but you can only do so much.

    With this combination, we are right back to the problem of less than perfect conditions.

    A heavier weight bullet, particularly a lswc design in the 38 caliber for the sake of argument , loaded with a 158 or even 200 grn bullet does not rely on ballistic manipulation to do the job. And both those weights are simply more reliable at any given condition to properly penetrate than the lightweight bullet at a slightly higher velocity.

    I have proven this over and over for my own knowledge and satisfaction, and if you do the research( unless you can go out and shoot a few animals) you will understand.

    Now, I don't think I can say much more on the subject, nor do I feel the need to prove my point.
    But, I can assure you that anyone who you may look up to in the shooting community would tell you the same.
    I'm sure Mas could explain it better than I , so if I catch him on another place I visit, I will ask him if there is a better way of getting it across.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    " a heavy bullet will always penetrate more than a light bullet given the same construction and velocity".

    No argument here. But that not we're comparing. Lighter bullet (not the lightest for caliber) pushed to a high velocity vs. a heavy( not the heaviest for caliber) loaded to a normal for caliber velocity = light bullet winning in energy on target.
    Penetration is affected by too many variables (other than the above) to be able to judge definitely.
    OMG! Have I entered the twilight zone? I really don't know what to say.
    All things being equal, there is only so much case capacity in a case. Sure, a lighter bullet can be driven to a higher velocity,
    But.......as hell, I'm going to bed. I don't care what anyone carries. Just trying to give the newbies something to think about in their choice.

    As for me, I am perfectly satisfied with my choice, so each his own.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  14. #43
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    OMG! Have I entered the twilight zone? I really don't know what to say.
    All things being equal, there is only so much case capacity in a case. Sure, a lighter bullet can be driven to a higher velocity,
    But.......as hell, I'm going to bed. I don't care what anyone carries. Just trying to give the newbies something to think about in their choice.

    As for me, I am perfectly satisfied with my choice, so each his own.
    I think what you were trying to say is this:

    A heavier bullet will always have greater penetration potential than a lightweight bullet of the same caliber and construction, ceteris paribus. (All other things being equal).
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  15. #44
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    For those who worry that a slower, heavier bullet will not expand out of a shorter barrel...at the bottom of this page is a 147 gr 9mm out of the short barrel of a KT P11:

    GoldenLoki.com

    I actually just ordered a bunch of 147 gr Speer Gold Dots for duty use - we do a lot of traffic details, so hard barrier penetration (windshields) is a concern for me. All the testing I've seen favors heavier bullets for this - they have less deflection than their lighter siblings.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  16. #45
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    AZHawk, thanks. Today has been super frustrating at work, the wife has had the lap top all evening, and it's hard to type out your thoughts on this phone...agggghhhh!
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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