SD Ammo, SD, and what it means and why

[Ishmael]

So, given that this thread is aimed at newbies, and with the understanding that this is a complex subject that reasonable people can disagree on: Glockman, can you offer some specifications of cartridges that would follow from your recommendations, in say .38, .357, and .40? I'm not entirely sure what "heavy" or "light" means in the abstract. (I mean, I know what it refers to, but how light can it be and still be "heavy" in the terms you are recommending?)

I really enjoyed this discussion, although I need more basic background reading to be able to understand it fully. Maybe a "Ballistics for Poets" book? (The reference is to a style of physics class aimed at the person who needs general understanding of the principles but not deep, technical problem-solving experience. Are there any books like that on the subject? I mean as a starting point?)

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[glockman10mm]

In 38 spl, I like the 158 weight bullets. In 9mm, I prefer the heavier 147 weight in +p. For 40 S&W I like the 180 or 200 weights.

The 357 magnum is an entirely different animal. It has enough case capacity to give high enough velocities to a lighter weight bullet. With the 125 weights, they have just enough density to work extremely well. In my opinion however, I would go with a 145 weight loading for any revolver with a 3 inch tube or longer, and 158 to 180 for anything shorter than 3 inches.

[smolck]

In 9mm, I prefer the heavier 147 weight in +p.

Which in some tests has proven to penetrate LESS than the standard pressure 147gr. 11" for +P vs 13" for standard.

[glockman10mm]

Am I being stalked? LMAO!

Actually Ishmael, in handguns like revolvers that will reliably fire them, a jacketed hollowpoint is not really even needed. A heavy LSWC will do a great job while cutting a full caliber hole without as much of a deflection issue.

[AZ Hawk]

Which in some tests has proven to penetrate LESS than the standard pressure 147gr. 11" for +P vs 13" for standard.

Wasn't that some random online newspaper jug test?

[smolck]

Wasn't that some random online newspaper jug test?

I said in SOME tests. You cannot discount EVERY test just because you don't agree with the result. I found it fascinating that under the same conditions in the same medium, the +P 147gr round expanded more but penetrated less than the standard pressure round. May mean nothing, but it did happen.

[AZ Hawk]

I said in SOME tests. You cannot discount EVERY test just because you don't agree with the result. I found it fascinating that under the same conditions in the same medium, the +P 147gr round expanded more but penetrated less than the standard pressure round. May mean nothing, but it did happen.



Once again, you are incapable of being adult and can only hurl insults.

Shooting a bullet into jugs of water/newspaper mix isn't testing anything other than what a bullet would do when fired into water/newspaper mix. You can make the same argument against gelatin, but at least ballistic gelatin is 'like' human tissue, and real world shootings have shown that a bullet which doesn't hit any bones will act pretty much like it does in ballistic gelatin. If it didn't, they would have stopped using ballistic gelatin as a testing medium a very long time ago.

Hell, how do you even know that the water/newspaper mix is anywhere near the same ratio of water and newspaper from test to test?

Finally, why would I care about the result so much that I'd "discount every test because [I] don't agree with the result?" I don't carry either of the 147 gr. HST loads, so I could really care less what the results were, even more so when it's unscientific "bunk" testing.

[smolck]

You can make the same argument against gelatin, but at least ballistic gelatin is 'like' human tissue, and real world shootings have shown that a bullet which doesn't hit any bones will act pretty much like it does in ballistic gelatin.

Well, I guess my memory isn't what it used to be. Seems the tests I was referring to are in fact ballistic gel. I suppose these tests are meaningless too. But alas, the +p load doesn't go as deep IN THIS PARTICULAR TEST.

[AZ Hawk]

Well, I guess my memory isn't what it used to be. Seems the tests I was referring to are in fact ballistic gel. I suppose these tests are meaningless too. But alas, the +p load doesn't go as deep IN THIS PARTICULAR TEST.

I'm lovin' how you constantly accuse everyone around you of being "hostile," then post, "I suppose these tests are meaningless too."

Anyways, so we have exactly one known test shot of the +P 147 gr. HST, and it penetrated less than the 147 gr. HST by two inches.

Two observations: (1) we've seen this before with +P and standard pressure 124 gr. HST loads, where the standard pressure bullet penetrates more than the +P bullet.

HST 124/124 +P: http://le.atk.com/pdf/HSTInsertPoster.pdf

(2) The +P bullet expanded 0.04" wider than the standard pressure bullet, and the wider a bullet expands, the more resistance it faces. The more resistance it faces, the less it penetrates. I don't believe that this extra expansion would cause the 2.0" difference in penetration, however.

And just for the record, one example does not equal a trend.

[Cuda66]

That doesn't look like standard gel; a bit too opaque. I also notice he keeps calling it "this particular media".

But hey...congratulations. After enough searching, you found one single test to bear out your perceptions.

Good for you.

[smolck]

And just for the record, one example does not equal a trend.

Nowhere did I state this was gospel. Merely food for thought.

[tacman605]

Lord I am glad I just use ball ammo in everything this is enough to make your head hurt.

[AZ Hawk]

Nowhere did I state this was gospel. Merely food for thought.

Yet you keep saying stuff like this:

Which in some tests has proven to penetrate LESS than the standard pressure 147gr. 11" for +P vs 13" for standard.

If I didn't know any better, I'd say you're pretty sure that will continue to repeat itself...

[bmcgilvray]

It sure would be better to quit reading the tests and go shoot.

[glockman10mm]

It sure would be better to quit reading the tests and go shoot.

Ain't it funny what you can learn from practical application of theories? Bryan, reckon shooting a few critters taught ya somethin not found in the lab eh, amigo?