"Hey look I shot 5 rounds into a water jug and..." - Page 2

"Hey look I shot 5 rounds into a water jug and..."

This is a discussion on "Hey look I shot 5 rounds into a water jug and..." within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Expansion? Great! What if it is too slow or too soon? Expansion is a means not an end in itself. Too much is made of ...

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  1. #16
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    Expansion? Great! What if it is too slow or too soon?

    Expansion is a means not an end in itself.

    Too much is made of expansion. It looms larger in our minds than it does in the wound channel.

    The market is saturated with a dizzying array of boutique ammunition, all loaded with "trick" bullets designed to capture the imaginations of buyers more than anything else. We have "Gold Dots." Are those like credit card banks' gold cards? When will they be trumped by "platinum dots?" Will bad guys no longer fall to gold dots when the platinum dots hit the streets? It's certain that lowly Silvertips are so "yesterday's news" that they'll just bounce off. Except for vampires, perhaps. And ancient Winchester "Black Talon" got it's nails clipped 20 years ago.

    What about Zombie Max. Will they fail on werewolves, mummies, goblins? Maybe generic Monster Max would be better. Skinny 19-year-old punks? Meth heads? Perhaps some punk max or meth-head max bullets are in order. Hornady's reduced to placing warnings on their ammo boxes: "Warning: This is Live Ammunition. This is not a toy." How embarrassing is that to have to address the immature nitwits who make up their market in such a way?

    Critical defense? Is that opposed to "non-critical defense?"

    Remington Golden Saber Bonded? As opposed to " Stainless Vegetable Peeler Bonded"?

    Federal goes for the alphabet soup method of naming their ammo, "HST." Winchester has their "PDX." Hornady has "TAP FPD."

    Pow'Rball? Is that Corbon ammunition or trout bait?

    Extreme Shock? A reference to the ammo's performance or the price tag?


    It's completely ridiculous , that's what it is!

    Just sayin'...
    pistola, Guantes, wmhawth and 5 others like this.
    Charter Member of the DC .41 LC Society "Get heeled! No really"

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  2. #17
    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    What about Zombie Max. Will they fail on werewolves, mummies, goblins? Maybe generic Monster Max would be better. Skinny 19-year-old punks? Meth heads? Perhaps some punk max or meth-head max bullets are in order. Hornady's reduced to placing warnings on their ammo boxes: "Warning: This is Live Ammunition. This is not a toy." How embarrassing is that to have to address the immature nitwits who make up their market in such a way?
    Sounds like you understand marketing really well. I read a story many years ago that opened my eyes to marketing. A guy who worked for a mens razor company told the story. After they found out that two blades work better than one, their competitor eventually came out with a 2-blade razor. The marketing department said they needed a 3-blade razor. Well, the engineers said that 3 blades didn't work any better than 2 blades and might actually work worse. But the marketing department won because 3 blades sounds better than 2. So they started producing 3 blade razors. But soon their competitor started producing 3 blades. So then, they had to move to 4 blades. You get the idea.

    The same has been true in electronics for years. People get stuck on a single description, such as the number of megapixels a camera has. Everybody wants the higher megapixel camera because they believe it will produce a better image. Sadly, higher megapixels usually means a worse image because now you've decreased the lighting pickup, added extra compression artifacts, and in many cases the optics of the camera can't even deliver an image that clear to the sensor. But by golly gee whiz, they keep adding the megapixels because that is what consumers want.
    Majorlk and Dadsnugun like this.
    "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." -Plato

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    I guess the bigger question is why do other people care?
    Because they don't know any better. The only useful purpose I have found for blowing up jugs of water was to teach my children (and now my grandchildren) that a .22 LR is not a toy.
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunthorp View Post
    This time of year we do our testing on the ballistic pumpkins. Some gun rag is sure to pay me big bucks for all my scientific research.
    Quit blowing up pumpkins; they are needed for punkin' chunkin' guns!!!
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    I guess the bigger question is why do other people care?
    This.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    Pow'Rball? Is that Corbon ammunition or trout bait?

    Extreme Shock? A reference to the ammo's performance or the price tag?


    It's completely ridiculous , that's what it is!

    Just sayin'...
    Enough!! Enough!! Yer killin me!

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by a__l__a__n View Post
    Expand.
    My farts expand,but if I miss my intended target they might as well have been sharts
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  8. #23
    Member Array a__l__a__n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    Expansion? Great! What if it is too slow or too soon?

    Expansion is a means not an end in itself.

    Too much is made of expansion. It looms larger in our minds than it does in the wound channel.

    The market is saturated with a dizzying array of boutique ammunition, all loaded with "trick" bullets designed to capture the imaginations of buyers more than anything else. We have "Gold Dots." Are those like credit card banks' gold cards? When will they be trumped by "platinum dots?" Will bad guys no longer fall to gold dots when the platinum dots hit the streets? It's certain that lowly Silvertips are so "yesterday's news" that they'll just bounce off. Except for vampires, perhaps. And ancient Winchester "Black Talon" got it's nails clipped 20 years ago.

    What about Zombie Max. Will they fail on werewolves, mummies, goblins? Maybe generic Monster Max would be better. Skinny 19-year-old punks? Meth heads? Perhaps some punk max or meth-head max bullets are in order. Hornady's reduced to placing warnings on their ammo boxes: "Warning: This is Live Ammunition. This is not a toy." How embarrassing is that to have to address the immature nitwits who make up their market in such a way?

    Critical defense? Is that opposed to "non-critical defense?"

    Remington Golden Saber Bonded? As opposed to " Stainless Vegetable Peeler Bonded"?

    Federal goes for the alphabet soup method of naming their ammo, "HST." Winchester has their "PDX." Hornady has "TAP FPD."

    Pow'Rball? Is that Corbon ammunition or trout bait?

    Extreme Shock? A reference to the ammo's performance or the price tag?


    It's completely ridiculous , that's what it is!

    Just sayin'...
    Same thing could be said about penetration. Once the bullet has entered and exited the body, all the extra "penetration" is lost.

    Bottom line, all other things being equal, you're better off with both penetration and expansion. It's kind of irrational to become so enamored with penetration that you ignore other factors that could give you an edge.

    But you can pick the ammo you want. It's a free country.

  9. #24
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by a__l__a__n View Post

    But you can pick the ammo you want. It's a free country.
    and make all the videos you want.....

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Bmcgilvray!!!!!!!!!!!! Man, can you bring it home! To say the least, because I cannot add to that splendidly hilarious but ever so true post.......I'm with you man!
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  11. #26
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Gel and other tests cannot fully simulate the strange angles bullets enter the body, bone impacts, and other anomalies.

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    You know, just to show I am even keeled, I can say I truly appriciate the technology that goes into bullet development. But what they are really saying when they put forth so much effort to make a bullet expand to twice it's original size is that you need a bigger bullet to start with.

    Bryan really shown a light on things with that hysterically funny but true post. Magic bullet technology is nothing more than attempt to make a sub caliber perform like a large caliber.

    The truth is a 38spl firing a full bore cutting heavy 158 grn lswc will hold it's own against any of the above for about 1/4 the cost.

    Maybe we should demand ammo companies make a reasonably priced decent SD round?
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  13. #28
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    You know, just to show I am even keeled, I can say I truly appriciate the technology that goes into bullet development. But what they are really saying when they put forth so much effort to make a bullet expand to twice it's original size is that you need a bigger bullet to start with.

    Bryan really shown a light on things with that hysterically funny but true post. Magic bullet technology is nothing more than attempt to make a sub caliber perform like a large caliber.

    The truth is a 38spl firing a full bore cutting heavy 158 grn lswc will hold it's own against any of the above for about 1/4 the cost.

    Maybe we should demand ammo companies make a reasonably priced decent SD round?
    I bought 1000 rounds of "three letter agency" overrun 180 gr. Federal HST .40 S&W @ 18.99 per 50 (shipping included). It was only a couple bucks more per 50 than what it costs me to buy training ammo, and that seemed pretty reasonably priced to me. People get into trouble in regards to cost of self defense ammunition when they are looking at the 20 round boxes you find in gun shops like Rem. Golden Sabers and Win. PDX1 rather than the 50 round LE boxes you can get online.

    Anyone looking for an excellent deal on an excellent 180 gr. .40 S&W SD ammunition should take a look here: 50 rds - 40 cal 180 grain Bonded Hollow point Winchester Q4369 ammo | SGAmmo.com / The ammo in the link is exactly the same ammo the FBI uses; it's the LE packaging of the civilian PDX1.

    But, yes, I do agree on your original point that you should not have to pay $1 per round like you do at most gun shops as that's pretty ridiculous.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  14. #29
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    Gel and other tests cannot fully simulate the strange angles bullets enter the body, bone impacts, and other anomalies.
    No, it cannot. It is, however, better than nothing.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    I bought 1000 rounds of "three letter agency" overrun 180 gr. Federal HST .40 S&W @ 18.99 per 50 (shipping included). It was only a couple bucks more per 50 than what it costs me to buy training ammo, and that seemed pretty reasonably priced to me. People get into trouble in regards to cost of self defense ammunition when they are looking at the 20 round boxes you find in gun shops like Rem. Golden Sabers and Win. PDX1 rather than the 50 round LE boxes you can get online.

    Anyone looking for an excellent deal on an excellent 180 gr. .40 S&W SD ammunition should take a look here: 50 rds - 40 cal 180 grain Bonded Hollow point Winchester Q4369 ammo | SGAmmo.com / The ammo in the link is exactly the same ammo the FBI uses; it's the LE packaging of the civilian PDX1.

    But, yes, I do agree on your original point that you should not have to pay $1 per round like you do at most gun shops as that's pretty ridiculous.
    Defintely an excellent price. And you are correct, also, there are good buys out there, IF one can seperate the BS from reality. And it sounds like you have. Ill have to check that out so thanks for the heads up.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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