Settling the 9mm "124 gr. vs 147 gr." Debate

This is a discussion on Settling the 9mm "124 gr. vs 147 gr." Debate within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by OldVet Yawn. . . Just curious... if this is so boring, why bother to click through and write a comment?...

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Thread: Settling the 9mm "124 gr. vs 147 gr." Debate

  1. #16
    Member Array a__l__a__n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Yawn. . .
    Just curious... if this is so boring, why bother to click through and write a comment?

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by a__l__a__n View Post
    Just curious... if this is so boring, why bother to click through and write a comment?
    I agree. Besides, this is nothing, try going to an archery forum. They too spend a LOT of time arguing over a heavy slow arrow vs. a lighter, faster one. Same thing and arrows are also measured in grains too. Funny, those debates usually end the same way with someone saying, it doesn't matter what you shoot as long as you can put the arrow in the vitals.

  4. #18
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by a__l__a__n View Post
    It's hard to argue with actual results:

    9 mm Stopping Power
    Where's the proof that these are "actual" results?
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by a__l__a__n View Post
    It's hard to argue with actual results:

    9 mm Stopping Power
    Sorry, but using Marshal & Sanow to back up one's position on defensive rounds is kinda like using the Flat Earth Society's evidence to back up a point on geography.

    Just sayin'.
    AZ Hawk likes this.
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  6. #20
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
    Sorry, but using Marshal & Sanow to back up one's position on defensive rounds is kinda like using the Flat Earth Society's evidence to back up a point on geography.

    Just sayin'.
    That was an awesome simile.
    shooterX likes this.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

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  7. #21
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    That was an awesome simile.
    Wasn't it though? Wasn't that published back in the days when the Mullet was a popular men's hairstyle?
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  8. #22
    Senior Member Array IAm_Not_Lost's Avatar
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    The skullet is the "in" thing now. shudder.
    "Brilliant. So now we got a huge guy theory, and a serial crusher theory. Top notch. What's your name?" - Paul Smecker

  9. #23
    Member Array snakyjake's Avatar
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    @AZ Hawk, thanks for summarizing the information. It's a good review.

    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk
    The CorBon DPX load utilizes an all-copper bullet, and it is therefore not the same as comparing it to a normal jacketed lead 115 gr. bullet.
    Interesting. I did a search on DPX, and didn't realize the uniqueness and advantages. I sure wonder how well the all copper bullet performs against bone, harder material, and automobile glass (AG) tests. It would seem the design of the DPX will have the advantage over 147.

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snakyjake View Post
    @AZ Hawk, thanks for summarizing the information. It's a good review.



    Interesting. I did a search on DPX, and didn't realize the uniqueness and advantages. I sure wonder how well the all copper bullet performs against bone, harder material, and automobile glass (AG) tests. It would seem the design of the DPX will have the advantage over 147.
    No problem.

    ----------------------

    Here is a direct quote from Dr. Roberts regarding DPX and auto glass:

    "Like the HST loads, the Barnes XPB bullets performed very well in both bare gel and 4 layer denim; the only area of concern was a propensity for the Barnes XPB bullets to have difficulties with auto windshield intermediate barriers. The Barnes bullets would frequently begin to yaw off course after only a few centimeters of travel in gel and would often veer to 90 degrees and exit the gel blocks in under 10 cm--this phenomena requires further study."

    Post #1: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=26390

    -----------------------

    And on whether to carry Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. +P or CorBon DPX 115 gr. +P:

    This question was asked by a member over at the M4Carbine.net forums here: 9mm Gold Dot 124gr P+ vs Corbon DPX 115gr P+ - M4Carbine.net Forums

    "Im about to update my 9mm ammo stash and I was looking at these 2 rounds for carry/self-defense purposes. Ive seen the gel tests and both seem to be good performers however each bullet type has different advantages. The gold dots seem to be much cheaper(around 50 cents a round) vs the DPX load which is almost $1.50 a round. The DPX bullet is lead free which is a plus but supposedly is not as effective through auto glass.

    Which one would you chose and why?"

    Dr. Roberts (DocGKR) responded: "Gold Dot 124 gr +P: They work great, are readily available, and of reasonable cost."

    ------------------------

    FWIW, I'm in the process of switching to the Gold Dot 124 gr. +P load simply because of the cost factor and it's street proven effectiveness. DPX is WAY FREAKING EXPENSIVE, and I can't properly vet the round in my gun without spending WAY too much money. Last time I purchased DPX it cost $29 for a box of 20. I just purchased lots of boxes of LE Gold Dot for $25 per box of 50.

    Here's a couple quotes on it's effectiveness from a magazine article here: Tactical-Life.com » Speer Gold Dot Hollow Points

    "The 9mm Gold Dot is yet another top shelf performer. In this ever-popular round, testing was conducted with the 124-grain +P load. This same load is utilized by the New York City Police Department and the New Jersey State Police. From a GLOCK 19, average muzzle velocity was 1181 fps with a penetration depth of 15.1 inches. Expansion of recovered bullets was picture perfect, averaging out to 0.63 of an inch."

    "Recently, ATK (Speer’s parent company), announced that after extensive testing, Gold Dot was selected as the standard issue ammunition to all 250,000 police officers in France, including the French Gendarmerie, French Customs, and French Corrections. Authorities there spent two years developing ammunition specifications and test protocol and Gold Dot ultimately came out on top. This contract expands Speer’s international footprint by providing top-quality ammunition to law enforcement officers both here and abroad."

    I know you didn't ask for all this, but I hope it helps someone as it helped me in my decision making process a great deal!
    snakyjake likes this.
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  11. #25
    Member Array snakyjake's Avatar
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    @AZ Hawk, great information again and a good refresh to revisit. I re-read DocGKR's thread and now realize Cor-bon DPX and Barnes XPB bullets are from the same round.

    One thing that is frustrating from the tests is that not all rounds are compared from the same barrel length. It makes some comparisons invalid.

    When I approached my decision of a self defense round, this is my criteria:

    1. Heavy clothing is my primary concern.
    2. The probability for my defensive scenarios involving a windshield unlikely. Therefore this is more of a concern for law enforcement than my defensive use. I choose what is best for me.
    3. Just because law enforcement or military uses the ammo, doesn't mean it will be the best for my scenarios.
    4. I carry 4.0" barrel, and choose the ballistic tables accordingly.
    5. I read somewhere the FBI considers penetration more important than diameter.
    6. Recoil (+P vs. more grain in same caliber vs. bigger caliber).


    When I looked at the thread's ballistics with my criteria, this is my finding:

    1. All are very close and the differences probably won't change an outcome.
    2. Fed HST 147 had the best expansion and penetration for heavy clothing out of a 4.0" barrel.
    3. I think I read 147 gr has less recoil than +P.
    4. 147 gr is rare and not popular among the choices, and that concerns me there's something important that I don't understand about the grain choices.
    5. Cor-bon still interests me because I'm more concerned how a bullet will do with bone and clothing than I am a windshield. If the XPB bullets are strong and not fragment, this can be an advantage ballist tests aren't showing.

    Too bad Winchester T hasn't been included in 4.0" barrel tests.

    Jake

  12. #26
    New Member Array tweensy's Avatar
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    Shoot some animals, be disgusted with 124 gr jhp's,much less the pathetic 147 gr load, Unless you use plus P's and 5" barrel, I guarantee that the 124 gr jhp;s won't expand reliably in flesh. Why care what it does in jello, hmm? Go shoot some coons, dillos, possums, nutri, chucks, and/or jacks and see for yourself. The 115 gr jh's are not much better, especially if you are using a 4" barrel.

    The only factory 9mm load worth a hoot is the CorBon 100 gr PowRball, and it also feeds more reliably than flat nosed jhp ammo. The FBI has been trying to make up for the 30x they completely MISSED Platt for 20 odd years now. :-) You can't get both lots of shocking ability and lots of penetration, in a load that is adquately controlable in a lw, compact ccw pistol. So, if you want both those attributes, all you can do is load some sort of European, pointed stuff, intended for use in SMG's, every other rd, along with CorBon 100gr PowRBalls.

    Realistically, you are going to have to fire lots of rds in a fight, regardless of the load, gun, or range, especially if you are trying to shoot thru "cover". So don't handicap yourself with just having "piercers", or just having "expanders". Don't worry about differences in POI, cause you will be missing the 10" circle of the chest a lot, at a mere 20 ft, regardless of who you are, once the lead starts flying. So a 3" diff in POI at 10 yds wont mean a thing when it's "for blood".

  13. #27
    Member Array odeaar's Avatar
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    @snakyjake
    "5. I read somewhere the FBI considers penetration more important than diameter."

    Is this the FBI article that you are referring? Great article (esp pg 11-12 & conclusion)
    FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness - FirearmsTactical.com

    -Andrew
    Carry: Sig P238
    Home: Stoeger Couger 8000F 9mm

  14. #28
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snakyjake View Post
    @AZ Hawk, great information again and a good refresh to revisit. I re-read DocGKR's thread and now realize Cor-bon DPX and Barnes XPB bullets are from the same round.

    One thing that is frustrating from the tests is that not all rounds are compared from the same barrel length. It makes some comparisons invalid.

    When I approached my decision of a self defense round, this is my criteria:

    1. Heavy clothing is my primary concern.
    2. The probability for my defensive scenarios involving a windshield unlikely. Therefore this is more of a concern for law enforcement than my defensive use. I choose what is best for me.
    3. Just because law enforcement or military uses the ammo, doesn't mean it will be the best for my scenarios.
    4. I carry 4.0" barrel, and choose the ballistic tables accordingly.
    5. I read somewhere the FBI considers penetration more important than diameter.
    6. Recoil (+P vs. more grain in same caliber vs. bigger caliber).


    When I looked at the thread's ballistics with my criteria, this is my finding:

    1. All are very close and the differences probably won't change an outcome.
    2. Fed HST 147 had the best expansion and penetration for heavy clothing out of a 4.0" barrel.
    3. I think I read 147 gr has less recoil than +P.
    4. 147 gr is rare and not popular among the choices, and that concerns me there's something important that I don't understand about the grain choices.
    5. Cor-bon still interests me because I'm more concerned how a bullet will do with bone and clothing than I am a windshield. If the XPB bullets are strong and not fragment, this can be an advantage ballist tests aren't showing.

    Too bad Winchester T hasn't been included in 4.0" barrel tests.

    Jake
    Very quick response as I'm short on time:

    1. 124 gr. +P Gold Dot is standard in NYC and NJ. They deal with heavy clothing ALL the time, and they are still using the 124 gr. +P.

    2. Dr. Roberts says that there are little to no differences ballistically between 3.5" to 4.5" barrels in regards to 9mm.

    3. I dislike the standard 147 gr. load because it cycles the slide just a bit slower than 124 gr. +P. I don't like waiting!

    4. You can compare 124 gr. + Gold Dots to DPX all day, and you'll find that the DPX is just a huge waste of money as the Gold Dot has been doing everything the DPX has been trying to do for much longer, and it's street proven. It just depends on whether you want to spend $27 per 20 rounds or $27 per 50 rounds.

    5. The standard 147 gr. load is perfectly fine, and the HST 147 gr. is becoming more popular in LE circles.
    snakyjake and Aphdmansoc like this.
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  15. #29
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tweensy View Post
    Shoot some animals, be disgusted with 124 gr jhp's,much less the pathetic 147 gr load, Unless you use plus P's and 5" barrel, I guarantee that the 124 gr jhp;s won't expand reliably in flesh. Why care what it does in jello, hmm? Go shoot some coons, dillos, possums, nutri, chucks, and/or jacks and see for yourself.
    1. You must be using really crappy 124 gr. bullets as there are lots of medical examiners in the U.S. and France who can attest to the effectiveness of 124 gr. +P Gold Dots.

    2. As if coons, dillos, possums, nutri, chucks and/or jacks were somehow more like humans than ballistic gelatin?
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  16. #30
    Member Array Maxwell47's Avatar
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    First, I've never seen a 147gr +P 9mm. Mybe I missed something.
    Second, the 147gr is much smoother to shoot and easier to recover from recoil, for me at least.

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