I'm a believer in 45 ACP FMJ for defense

This is a discussion on I'm a believer in 45 ACP FMJ for defense within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I don't care what caliber or bullet style you shoot a BG with, as long as you do. . . . and as often as ...

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Thread: I'm a believer in 45 ACP FMJ for defense

  1. #31
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    I don't care what caliber or bullet style you shoot a BG with, as long as you do. . . . and as often as needed.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverickx50 View Post
    Hard to believe unless on drugs. It should have at the very least knocked them down I'd think. Had to hurt even if it didn't penetrate.
    That knockdown power is a myth,there was the fabricator of a ballistic vest on youtube,had his buddy shoot him point blank range with a 308 rifle in the vest while standing on one leg and he never lost his balance
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
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  4. #33
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by All_Business View Post
    A round that travels as slow as 230 grain is less likely to expand when traveling through thick/tough fabrics like denim, leather, winter coats, etc. Another reason why I would agree with you here is shooting through vehicles: if someone is shooting at you and taking cover behind a car door...one of my spare mags has fmj rounds in it for that reason.
    You do know that a JHP shot through steel basically acts like a FMJ right, and that the worse possible outcome of a premium 230 gr. JHP when shot through denim, winter coats, etc., is basically the hollow cavity plugging and once again acting like a FMJ bullet, right?

    Winter clothing, denim and leather will most likely cause a JHP bullet to penetrate MORE, not less.

    See here: http://le.atk.com/pdf/GoldDotPoster.pdf

    230 gr. Speer Gold Dot -

    Gun - S&W Model 4506 (5" Barrel)
    Velocity/Energy - 851 fps / 371 ft-lbs Kinetic Energy

    Bare Gelatin - 13.00" Penetration / 99% weight retention
    Heavy Clothing - 13.60" Pen / 100% weight retention
    Steel (Car Door) - 19.45" Pen / 99.9% weight retention
    Windshield - 13.10" Pen / ~95% weight retention
    4 Layers Denim - 14.55" Pen / 100% weight retention

    I see no reason to be worried.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  5. #34
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    Over the years I have carried both .45 and 9mm in military, LE and Contracting enviroments. On occasion I would carry HP or other speciality ammo such as Glaser Safety Slugs or Power Ball and so on.

    In all that time I never really saw a difference in the subjects that were shot with whatever round. Some lived, some died there was not a great trend as to the kill ratio with a particular brand or type of ammo. In the military and contractor enviroment we are restricted by law as to the ammo we can carry that being ball ammo.

    Yes there have been cases where persons were shot with a FMJ 5.56 round and kept coming. Sometimes though this was because the troop themselves fired one or two rounds, witnessed the hit and kept moving not bothering to check if the target was down for good or if the shot placement was decent after all it works on Call of Duty why not in real life.

    Remember guys a handgun round, generally speaking, is nothing more than the ultimate pain compliance device and what hurts me might not hurt you in the same way. I carry ball ammo in most of my SD guns when home and dont look back. If I shoot someone once with a 9mm and they dont quit what they are doing simply keep shooting until they do this is with any caliber.

    I am not saying HP's are bad or that there are not better SD rounds out there than ball, just saying dont rely on hype or ads no matter what you use, shoot til he stops and not the 2.3 rounds expended study, or what the manufacture claims or what the latest G&A poll says. Remember he may not have gotten the memo about how he is supposed to react.

    Just an opinion
    Dadsnugun likes this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  6. #35
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Remember guys a handgun round, generally speaking, is nothing more than the ultimate pain compliance device and what hurts me might not hurt you in the same way. I carry ball ammo in most of my SD guns when home and dont look back. If I shoot someone once with a 9mm and they dont quit what they are doing simply keep shooting until they do this is with any caliber.
    Not knocking your post in any way, I just wanted to point something out.

    I couldn't agree more when you said, "...a handgun round, generally speaking, is nothing more than the ultimate pain compliance device and what hurts me might not hurt you in the same way."

    However, the problem with carrying ball (FMJ) ammo for those of us who live in major metropolitan areas is the near 100% probability of overpenetration. I know, you should know your target and what lies beyond it, but who knows who long a bullet might travel if it is interrupted by a bone dense enough to stop it or at least significantly slow it down?

    Besides, who doesn't want a 9mm bullet which expands nearly 2x it's original diameter and causes more trauma to the receiver?

    Of course shot placement is still king, but I don't think anyone would admit to not wanting some extra help in a life or death situation!
    mrwonderful likes this.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  7. #36
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    Az no problem.

    Over penetration can be an issue with any round at SD distances and yes you have to worry about what is behind your target I am just saying in the overall scheme of things I have not seen issues with overpentration of ball ammo, especially a .45, in cases where the person was hit in the chest/abdomen the bullet tended to slow so quickly it just stayed in.

    In shootings where the shot placement was not good, upper chest/shoulder, arms, legs yes no matter what the round was something ussually came out the other side there was simply not enough tissue to keep the bullet in.

    As stated there are probably better rounds out there for SD situations just dont get caught up in the hype of the super, duper, one shot stop, goes through cars but not people bullet rhetoric. Better to plan on the overpenetration and use a round more suited to the enviroment you are in.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  8. #37
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Az no problem.

    Over penetration can be an issue with any round at SD distances and yes you have to worry about what is behind your target I am just saying in the overall scheme of things I have not seen issues with overpentration of ball ammo, especially a .45, in cases where the person was hit in the chest/abdomen the bullet tended to slow so quickly it just stayed in.

    In shootings where the shot placement was not good, upper chest/shoulder, arms, legs yes no matter what the round was something ussually came out the other side there was simply not enough tissue to keep the bullet in.

    As stated there are probably better rounds out there for SD situations just dont get caught up in the hype of the super, duper, one shot stop, goes through cars but not people bullet rhetoric. Better to plan on the overpenetration and use a round more suited to the enviroment you are in.
    I hear ya, but you need not worry about that with me. The only one shot stop I believe in is fired from a 120mm on an Abrams.
    tacman605 likes this.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  9. #38
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Bullets have a goal. Plain and simple to put a hole into tissue, and anything in it's way. Any addition to that projectile, no matter the design or innovation has as much a chance to hinder this goal as enhance it's effect.

    The trick is to balance these qualities. If the expansion is too rapid, it hinders forward progress. If it is too light, it may not penetrate, or veer off course from resistance. If it is too heavy and does not open up, it will cut a straight line hole and possibly exit.

    Of all those, the only choice that can be counted for consistency is straight line penetration.
    I'll hedge my bet on what I can count on.
    tacman605 likes this.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    You do know that a JHP shot through steel basically acts like a FMJ right, and that the worse possible outcome of a premium 230 gr. JHP when shot through denim, winter coats, etc., is basically the hollow cavity plugging and once again acting like a FMJ bullet, right?

    Winter clothing, denim and leather will most likely cause a JHP bullet to penetrate MORE, not less.

    See here: http://le.atk.com/pdf/GoldDotPoster.pdf

    230 gr. Speer Gold Dot -

    Gun - S&W Model 4506 (5" Barrel)
    Velocity/Energy - 851 fps / 371 ft-lbs Kinetic Energy

    Bare Gelatin - 13.00" Penetration / 99% weight retention
    Heavy Clothing - 13.60" Pen / 100% weight retention
    Steel (Car Door) - 19.45" Pen / 99.9% weight retention
    Windshield - 13.10" Pen / ~95% weight retention
    4 Layers Denim - 14.55" Pen / 100% weight retention

    I see no reason to be worried.
    Yea thats pretty much what I was getting at. I didn't know that until not too long ago. Ya really gotta know your stuff when selecting a SD round. Hornady practically eliminates this problem with the flex tip on their ciritcal defense rounds.
    "When that gun comes out of that holster; it's business time." -Chris Costa

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by All_Business View Post
    Yea thats pretty much what I was getting at. I didn't know that until not too long ago. Ya really gotta know your stuff when selecting a SD round. Hornady practically eliminates this problem with the flex tip on their ciritcal defense rounds.
    Well, that was the idea, but bullets like the Speer Gold Dot, Federal HST, Winchester Ranger-T, etc., don't need a "flex tip" to expand. Hornady found a solution to a problem that doesn't exist...

    I suggest giving this a read through - FirearmsTactical.com: TacticalBriefs, April 2006
    mrwonderful likes this.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  12. #41
    New Member Array lanky's Avatar
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    Actually, thick clothing makes hp's penetratre more deeply. The cloth debris "clogs" the hp's nose cavity, delaying or eliminating expansion of said hp. This effect is well documented. It is also well documented that the .45 "ball" rd will shoot thru two men's torsos, so to say it does not overpenetrate is to commit a huge error. What the Korean vets didn't say was that they were firing at MUCH too great a range for the little .30 C to be effective. That gun and rd really, really "falls off" in power and trajectory beyond about 100 yds. Just look at some ballistics charts, you will see that this is so. The bullet is too blunt to slip thru the air's resistance very well, and it only starts at 1900 fps. The 30-30 starts at 2400 fps, and has more momentum, yet it, too, is noted as not being worth much beyond 150 yds.

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverickx50 View Post
    A. The 1911 was and is designed for this round all others have to in some way copy the physical requirements to function. (same reason that I carry a full 5" 1911. Shorter barrels are usually a compromise in reliability. Not always I'm told but I'm yet to be convinced.)


    D. Less expensive. I can practice with what I carry without a bank loan for ammunition. And everybody carries it in stock.
    B & C have been covered pretty thoroughly but I still have A & D that I consider. No matter what people here say I'm betting very few of us put 100's of $2.00 a round ammo thru our guns.
    I carry to protect myself and my loved ones from the BG's. Not to solve societies problems. That said: if more carried the deterrent would only have a positive overall effect on those problems.

  14. #43
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    I've put many 10's of thousands of rds of long nosed swc's thru 1911's and commanders, no problems, if the mags, recoil springs and feed ramps are in spec. Thousands of other Combat match competitors will tell you the same thing. The modern day jhp's are much less difficult to get to feed reliably. Nobody has to practice with their carry loads. At least, not after having fired 50-100 rds of the carry load to determin its reliability. There is so little difference in POI and controlability in .45 or 9mm jhp's and "ball" ammo as to make no difference at all. Such minor things are not why cops and everyone else misses the entire man a lot, at a mere 20 ft.

  15. #44
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    I always have liked the .45 ACP cartridge, even in 230 grain FMJ round nose guise. I also like the idea of the .40 S&W but always have had .45 automatics on hand so haven't yet acquired the first .40.

    Valid concerns about over-penetration are mentioned in this thread while over on another current thread they're "spraying and praying." "More lead downrange faster." Are they dumping all those bullets into a target or are they laying down suppressive fire? What of the penetrating capabilities of bullets that miss the intended target?

    Lanky;

    Go out and shoot some of these cartridges that you claim "fall off" at these distances you state. A .30-30 with factory ammo isn't such a slug at 200 yards, or even 300 for that matter if the rifle is sighted for it. It still hits pretty hard too.

    And don't stand behind a typical single wide mobile home for protection from a .30 Carbine being fired at you from 300 yards away. There isn't enough mobile home, even with the extra interior wall or two, to keep the bullets from exiting.
    glockman10mm, tacman605 and OD* like this.
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  16. #45
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    It is also well documented that the .45 "ball" rd will shoot thru two men's torsos, so to say it does not overpenetrate is to commit a huge error.

    Can you please point me in the direction of this well documented fact?
    OD* and Majorlk like this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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