Facts, Fantasy, and Bullet Weight

This is a discussion on Facts, Fantasy, and Bullet Weight within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by AZ Hawk Had the 5 FBI agents been armed with M4/AR-15s and/or shotguns, this firefight would have had a MUCH different result. ...

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Thread: Facts, Fantasy, and Bullet Weight

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array onacoma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post

    Had the 5 FBI agents been armed with M4/AR-15s and/or shotguns, this firefight would have had a MUCH different result.
    This was 1986 and the 5.56mm was basically the same round from VN era! April 30, 1968 I personally stop carring a M-16 and went to a 12ga as my secondary. A Ma-Duce was my primary in the Armored Cav. That evening I put 20 5.56mm rounds on target and the target ran 20 yds pass me while continuing to empty a 30 round magazine on his AK! To this day I'll never carry a 5.56! So what ifs, butt for, and do overs don't count for anything but a movie script!

    If I remember correctly from the report neither the bad guys nor the FBI in that shoot out got a one shot kill.

    The SWAT shooting in AZ were the guy was hit in excess of 20 times with a 5.56mm and they had to let him bleed out as none of the rounds hit the stop button is another example.

    Now there is no arugment on the shotgun!

    I've again attached a real life FBI 2006 shoot out study and a FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectness. These again go back to you have to get to the stop button on a BG!
    Attached Files


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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onacoma View Post
    This was 1986 and the 5.56mm was basically the same round from VN era! April 30, 1968 I personally stop carring a M-16 and went to a 12ga as my secondary. A Ma-Duce was my primary in the Armored Cav. That evening I put 20 5.56mm rounds on target and the target ran 20 yds pass me while continuing to empty a 30 round magazine on his AK! To this day I'll never carry a 5.56! So what ifs, butt for, and do overs don't count for anything but a movie script!

    If I remember correctly from the report neither the bad guys nor the FBI in that shoot out got a one shot kill.

    The SWAT shooting in AZ were the guy was hit in excess of 20 times with a 5.56mm and they had to let him bleed out as none of the rounds hit the stop button is another example.

    Now there is no arugment on the shotgun!

    I've again attached a real life FBI 2006 shoot out study and a FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectness. These again go back to you have to get to the stop button on a BG!
    That same argument applies to the shotgun: If you don't hit them in the right places, it doesn't really matter what you are shooting them with.

    Still, five trained agents with 5.56 ARs vs technically one BG (the other was unconscious for the majority of the fight if I remember correctly) with a 5.56 AR is a no-brainer. Even if that one BG was a Marine or SEAL or Ranger, whatever, 5 v 1 with the same weapons is bad odds for anyone.

    And there was a one shot kill, I believe. One of the agents was shot in the head by the BG with the 5.56 AR.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  4. #18
    Distinguished Member Array onacoma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post

    And there was a one shot kill, I believe. One of the agents was shot in the head by the BG with the 5.56 AR.
    First I want to thank you for making my point and correcting my mis-statement

    The gun fight report I attached the 3 officers fired 107 round both 40 SW and .223/5.56. The bad guy (1) fire 26 rounds while reloading his magazine from a loose box of ammo. This shoot out the good guys had a 3 to 1 advantage. Lucky in this one no good guys were killed!

    The AZ SWAT shooting of the marine was and I'm going from memory 6 to 1 all carring 5.56mm SBRs at point blank and the marine lived for at lease 15 minutes after the SWAT team stop shooting.

    I expressed my opinion of the 223/5.56mm as a defensive round based on my experience of seeing it not perform in life /death events. Of course every rectum has their opinions and I was expressing mine. So please don't take it personally!

    As a note I have two 6.8mm SPCs M6A2/3 and they do work on "Dangerous Pigs" in the wild. Of course the pigs make great Bar-B-Q!

    No bar jokes please
    AZ Hawk likes this.


    In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm and three or more is a congress. -- John Adams

    If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's free! -- P.J. O'Rourke

  5. #19
    Member Array Gunsmoke16's Avatar
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    If you hit them in the eyeball with a bb...you would probably stop them, or at least make them hesitate. Good shot of wasp & hornet spray will blind them. .22's and .38's have probably killed more people than all those other calibers combined. Personally I believe the bigger the projectile is, the better the stopping result would be. The .45 would be my choice if I had to stop something.

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onacoma View Post
    First I want to thank you for making my point and correcting my mis-statement

    The gun fight report I attached the 3 officers fired 107 round both 40 SW and .223/5.56. The bad guy (1) fire 26 rounds while reloading his magazine from a loose box of ammo. This shoot out the good guys had a 3 to 1 advantage. Lucky in this one no good guys were killed!

    The AZ SWAT shooting of the marine was and I'm going from memory 6 to 1 all carring 5.56mm SBRs at point blank and the marine lived for at lease 15 minutes after the SWAT team stop shooting.

    I expressed my opinion of the 223/5.56mm as a defensive round based on my experience of seeing it not perform in life /death events. Of course every rectum has their opinions and I was expressing mine. So please don't take it personally!

    As a note I have two 6.8mm SPCs M6A2/3 and they do work on "Dangerous Pigs" in the wild. Of course the pigs make great Bar-B-Q!

    No bar jokes please
    Nice! I love my M6A3, but I have yet to purchase the 6.8mm upper. Modern 5.56mm designs are much better than they were before, but 5.56mm fragments in food aren't really all that good for the teeth!
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  7. #21
    New Member Array lanky's Avatar
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    If you use good softpoint or hollowpoint ammo in the 5.56, it does a very, very fine job of stopping men, even with gut, shoulder or limb hits, normally. The shotgun has failed, too, you know, even with good chest hits, both buckshot and slugs, even at ranges of less than 20 ft, nicely centered patterns of 00 buck.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    I promise you my 9mm is plenty of gun to bet my life on. And furthermore, should any of us claim that one caliber is superior based on a single bullet? Take a .45 acp that holds 9 rounds or a 9mm that holds 17, the 17 rounds is more "firepower" and capable of putting more lead downrange faster than the lower capacity .45.

    In a gun fight most experts will tell you whoever puts more lead down range is the winner. Add to that my tireless training, shooting, and study of defense and I'd gladly bet my life (and my loved one's) on my 9mm full of 115gr hollow points.

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Really, all caliber wars are argued poorly. Mass and Velocity are both important factors. Penetration can be a factor to consider that mass can hinder or help, depending on the target. All are factors on how well you may hit the target. I'm no expert, but it is that simple.

    If it makes people feel better to believe that the mass is so little it does not matter, they just don't undestand something simple, and cognitive dissonance prevents them from reaching the truth, both mass and velocity matter. Their real concern is either easy carry vs full size or capacity, and the unwillingness of all to accept there is always a trade-off.

    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    I promise you my 9mm is plenty of gun to bet my life on...
    What is the over / under on 9mm carry? I would never bet my life unless I was betting the spread, then again, you would still be dead.

    PS. I carry a .38+P most of the time. While I would never bet my life on it, I'll give it a try no matter what the odds.
    bmcgilvray likes this.
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  10. #24
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    Really, all caliber wars are argued poorly. Mass and Velocity are both important factors. Penetration can be a factor to consider that mass can hinder or help, depending on the target. All are factors on how well you may hit the target. I'm no expert, but it is that simple.

    If it makes people feel better to believe that the mass is so little it does not matter, they just don't undestand something simple, and cognitive dissonance prevents them from reaching the truth, both mass and velocity matter. Their real concern is either easy carry vs full size or capacity, and the unwillingness of all to accept there is always a trade-off.



    What is the over / under on 9mm carry? I would never bet my life unless I was betting the spread, then again, you would still be dead.

    PS. I carry a .38+P most of the time. While I would never bet my life on it, I'll give it a try no matter what the odds.
    Its called a figure of speech, pick your arguments a little better. Obviously if I had to bet my life on a gun I'd bet it on a 30mm cannon. Hard to conceal though.

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    Its called a figure of speech, pick your arguments a little better. Obviously if I had to bet my life on a gun I'd bet it on a 30mm cannon. Hard to conceal though.
    When you use a figure of speech, you do not begin it with. "I promise you".
    You either mean it or your just blowing. I would guess the latter.

    Other than regurgitating things you have read or heard others say, I would be interested in a brief synopsis of your practical experience to validate the " I promise you" statements you have made on this and another thread.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    When you use a figure of speech, you do not begin it with. "I promise you".
    You either mean it or your just blowing. I would guess the latter.

    Other than regurgitating things you have read or heard others say, I would be interested in a brief synopsis of your practical experience to validate the " I promise you" statements you have made on this and another thread.
    You are on my ignore list, unfortunately for me I clicked the button to see what you wrote. I can start anything sentence I chose with any phrase I choose. And I don't carry what you think of me.

    You spout on about ballistics like you have any credentials to back your claims up and attack people who disagree with you. Rational thought isn't in any of your posts. It is simply, "my way is better cause I hunt them deer" and other big game". Tell me ONE law agency or federal agency who has called you for ballistics consulting work. Name ONE court case where you have been called as a witness to speak as an EXPERT on ballistics. Name ONE instance where you did an autopsy and someone used your medical report for a case.

    All you can say is "heavy is better". Internet experts like you are a dime a dozen. Back to the ignore list. Spout your crap to those sheep that can't think enough for themselves to form their own opinions and listen to your dribble. I at least tried to discuss the situations, you just attack people.

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Actually I could tell you about autopsy I have observed, quite a few court cases I have testified in,and am currently involved with, and at least 5 LE agencies I have helped with training, not to mention my tenure at Quantico VA.

    But since I have been have obtained the honor of being on your ignore list, ( and I do consider it as such), I will not have to go through the effort of wasting my time.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    I promise you my 9mm is plenty of gun to bet my life on. And furthermore, should any of us claim that one caliber is superior based on a single bullet? Take a .45 acp that holds 9 rounds or a 9mm that holds 17, the 17 rounds is more "firepower" and capable of putting more lead downrange faster than the lower capacity .45.

    In a gun fight most experts will tell you whoever puts more lead down range is the winner. Add to that my tireless training, shooting, and study of defense and I'd gladly bet my life (and my loved one's) on my 9mm full of 115gr hollow points.
    Hi Smolck;

    It is reasonable to debate the relative merits of one cartridge versus another even if no consensus will ever be reached. 9mm is fully adequate if that is one's choice. If choosing a semi-auto pistol I'd prefer a .40 S&W or .45 ACP myself. I'm actually another satisfied .38 Special toter and prefer it's performance over 9mm.

    Do you really consider "firepower" to be so important. Who are the "experts" who make this claim about the winner being the one who puts the most lead downrange? Where does accuracy figure into your training/shooting regime? Putting more lead down range faster sure smacks of spraying and praying. "Lotsa bullets" delivered faster becomes a waste along with a potential liability if they aren't well directed.

    I'd really like to know of some examples of advice given by the "experts" who advocate volume of fire and also who the actual "experts" are. I want to avoid them and their irresponsible and ludicrous doctrine.
    ntkb likes this.
    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

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  15. #29
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    Hi Smolck;

    It is reasonable to debate the relative merits of one cartridge versus another even if no consensus will ever be reached. 9mm is fully adequate if that is one's choice. If choosing a semi-auto pistol I'd prefer a .40 S&W or .45 ACP myself. I'm actually another satisfied .38 Special toter and prefer it's performance over 9mm.

    Do you really consider "firepower" to be so important. Who are the "experts" who make this claim about the winner being the one who puts the most lead downrange? Where does accuracy figure into your training/shooting regime? Putting more lead down range faster sure smacks of spraying and praying. "Lotsa bullets" delivered faster becomes a waste along with a potential liability if they aren't well directed.

    I'd really like to know of some examples of advice given by the "experts" who advocate volume of fire and also who the actual "experts" are. I want to avoid them and their irresponsible and ludicrous doctrine.
    Very well put.

    I also have no idea what or who is referring to when he says, "In a gun fight most experts will tell you whoever puts more lead down range is the winner."

    I do know that Suarez Int. advocates the use of 9mm for its greater capacity, but they don't advocate so you can put the most lead down range. They and I both advocate it because the chances of a male getting attacked by only one person is very slim. The likelihood is at least two, more like three or four, at least in major metropolitan areas where gang activity is rather high. They teach to put three to four rounds per target, and I tend to agree that three or four holes is much better than one or two, especially if you are outnumbered. It's also MUCH easier to work a 9mm one handed.

    I mention this because no one at SI advocates a 9mm simply to put tons of lead downrange...

    In actuality, the the D.O.J. did a study on the "Drug War" in Mexico specifically in relation to gunfights, and they found the vast majority of the winners were the ones who were able to keep their guns running the longest. (Quite obvious, no?) It had nothing to do with who fired the most shots.

    I have no idea what the specific study was as it was told to me by Doug Little of SI, so I'll have to ask him next time I see him.
    Majorlk likes this.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  16. #30
    Member Array ak74's Avatar
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    Sounds to me like smolck is talking about military combat. Yes army vs army fire superiority wins out.

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