Facts, Fantasy, and Bullet Weight - Page 3

Facts, Fantasy, and Bullet Weight

This is a discussion on Facts, Fantasy, and Bullet Weight within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by bmcgilvray Do you really consider "firepower" to be so important. Depends on how firepower is defined. I wouldn't waste all my ammo ...

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Thread: Facts, Fantasy, and Bullet Weight

  1. #31
    Member Array snakyjake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    Do you really consider "firepower" to be so important.
    Depends on how firepower is defined. I wouldn't waste all my ammo and not have anything for multiple attackers. Betting that when bullets start to fly that my accuracy will fly too, I'm going to rely a lot more on trying place many bullets on my target. While many will quibble about 0.05" difference in diameter for that lucky one shot stop, I'm hoping to get more extra bullets into the hostile.

    So I balance my choices of being within FBI standards, reliable, and being able to be fast (and accurate...of course). Oh, and lets not forget noise and flash too. There's a lot that can be considered.

    For 9mm I use 147g. For my every day carry, I carry 38 spc, Cor-Bon DPX 115gr +p. The ballistics of the Cor-Bon in 38spc looked real good to me compared to other 38's. I'm happy that I know why I chose.

    This has been a great discussion of differing philosophies. I'm enjoying everyone sharing theirs, and learning.

    Jake


  2. #32
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    I think the phrase being used should be "He who puts the most lead on target" not just downrange. You can fire 47 rounds in 2.8 seconds but if you dont hit a damn thing it does not make a bit of difference.

    I have seen a lot of graphs, flip charts, and quotes of studies done but it all comes down to the persons will to fight back and where the round is placed. You either have to hurt the person enough that they no longer wish to play anymore or mechanically break them so they can't play anymore.

    There will always be two basic camps or thoughts on this matter slow and heavy or fast and light. Either one will do the job in the right hands.

    This article gives some good info. For those that like formulas it gives a lot but lots of good reading.

    Terminal Ballistics
    Majorlk likes this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    I promise you my 9mm is plenty of gun to bet my life on. And furthermore, should any of us claim that one caliber is superior based on a single bullet? Take a .45 acp that holds 9 rounds or a 9mm that holds 17, the 17 rounds is more "firepower" and capable of putting more lead downrange faster than the lower capacity .45.

    In a gun fight most experts will tell you whoever puts more lead down range is the winner. Add to that my tireless training, shooting, and study of defense and I'd gladly bet my life (and my loved one's) on my 9mm full of 115gr hollow points.
    I know I'm also an esteemed member of Smolck's Ignore List--and like Gman, I also find it an honor--but since one of my chosen .45's carries 15 rounds of .45...I think that "I promise him" that it's more "firepower".

    Or whatever.
    glockman10mm likes this.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  4. #34
    mkh
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Everyone is missing the point. Jello is one thing. Living tissue is another. Complicated shot angles that much traverse a wide array of density and from soft fat and muscle to cartlidge and bone.

    This is where you will see the difference.
    Makes me wonder if we should be shooting at cans of Spam instead of gelatin. But I'm sure there are those that will argue that Spam isn't really meat either.

    These caliber/velocity/weight debates will never go away.

  5. #35
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    You are on my ignore list, unfortunately for me I clicked the button to see what you wrote. I can start anything sentence I chose with any phrase I choose. And I don't carry what you think of me.
    I have discovered, from this and many other Internet forums, that the ones who make such prolific use of an IGNORE button simply don't like reading anything other than their own opinion. IOW, you disagree with me and you are history.

    Of such conduct is bred ignorance.
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

  6. #36
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkh View Post
    These caliber/velocity/weight debates will never go away.
    And they all end pretty much the same way - inconclusively, except in the minds of the major protagonists. Rarely, if ever, is anyone's mind on the subject changed.
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

  7. #37
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    I carry primarily weapons that fire 9X18 (Makarov) rounds. What I need to know is where I fit in, in this derision of caliber... Can I get both sides to tell me I 'r' an idiot?

    I am thinking of moving up to a Tokarev 'cause I heard that the 7.62X25mm round will pierce metal car skins easily..


    O gee, how I love caliber wars!
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  8. #38
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    Wait a minute here let's settle whats the most important issue brought up so far.

    Spam is not meat? I demand proof.
    oneshot likes this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  9. #39
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    I have never heard that the most common SD situation a CC holder might face is more than two attackers. I'm sure it could range in the 25% of SD situations. The only 100% certain factor is that target has to be hit by something if you are going to be in a SD situation.

    One or two attackers can be on you in seconds at ranges involved in a SD situation. If the number of attackers is greater than that, unless well trained, I think the odds at best would be 50/50 most would be handing a loaded firearm to their attackers at some point after the first 5 to 10 rounds. Respectfully no matter how situationally aware, how often could you simply be knocked in the head with a rock because you are just living an ordinary life mowing your lawn.

    I don't hold anything against anyone who might chose one caliber over another. Be it for knock down, recoil, or capacity, they are all valid considerations.

    With that said, a belief that you are not compromising various strengths and weaknesses, based on the caliber you chose, is short sighted.
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  10. #40
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    I have never heard that the most common SD situation a CC holder might face is more than two attackers. I'm sure it could range in the 25% of SD situations. The only 100% certain factor is that target has to be hit by something if you are going to be in a SD situation.
    Did you hear the "major metropolitan area" part? I live right on the border of Tempe and central Phoenix, and Phoenix isn't exactly known for being a "friendly" place, i.e., Phoenix is the kidnapping capital of America and second in the world behind Mexico City.

    The majority of the problem is due to the Mexican "Drug War" spreading into America, however. (See here: Phoenix Number Two Kidnapping Capital as Drug Cartel Wars Intensify | Drug Addiction Treatment ) These types of folk don't really attack people alone and considering I'm 6'1, 195 lbs. and of average build, I'm not exactly the type of person who would be attacked by a single BG. I am of course assuming that my potential BG is looking for "easy prey," so to speak, as BGs tend to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    One or two attackers can be on you in seconds at ranges involved in a SD situation. If the number of attackers is greater than that, unless well trained, I think the odds at best would be 50/50 most would be handing a loaded firearm to their attackers at some point after the first 5 to 10 rounds. Respectfully no matter how situationally aware, how often could you simply be knocked in the head with a rock because you are just living an ordinary life mowing your lawn.
    That's why you GET THE HELL OFF THE X!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    I don't hold anything against anyone who might chose one caliber over another. Be it for knock down, recoil, or capacity, they are all valid considerations.

    With that said, a belief that you are not compromising various strengths and weaknesses, based on the caliber you chose, is short sighted.
    Can you elaborate on what you mean by this, "...a belief that you are not compromising various strengths and weaknesses, based on the caliber you chose, is short sighted?"
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  11. #41
    Senior Member Array SFury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    I think the phrase being used should be "He who puts the most lead on target" not just downrange. You can fire 47 rounds in 2.8 seconds but if you dont hit a damn thing it does not make a bit of difference.

    I have seen a lot of graphs, flip charts, and quotes of studies done but it all comes down to the persons will to fight back and where the round is placed. You either have to hurt the person enough that they no longer wish to play anymore or mechanically break them so they can't play anymore.

    There will always be two basic camps or thoughts on this matter slow and heavy or fast and light. Either one will do the job in the right hands.

    This article gives some good info. For those that like formulas it gives a lot but lots of good reading.

    Terminal Ballistics
    What the article really highlights is that heavier hollow points are not necessarily worth anything. If you want expansion then lighter hollow points are more likely to expand, but are not necessarily better than heavier lead nosed rounds.

    Which is what other studies by various gun testers and experts have shown to be true.

    The one thing not mentioned in that article, because it does not deal with gun handling whatsoever, is control. If you cannot control your gun with a heavier round, then you are not as likely to follow the first of the 5 Ps mentioned. Placement. Using ammunition you can comfortably shoot matters more, even with the heavier is better mantra some have, if the heavier ammo makes you unlikely to be accurate.

    People are not machines, and making broad statements to make some people do the same thing, well, it doesn't work. Everyone's hands are unique, and the ability to handle recoil varies so much from shooter to shooter. There are no absolutes, just general truths.

  12. #42
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    SF you are correct there are no absolutes just general truths. That is why data from a flip chart, graph or government study does not always transfer over to the real world.

    On here and in other topics people have used the FBI Miami Shootout as an example of light, heavy, rifle, pistol and so on penetration and stopping power. The one thing not mentioned or taken into account however is that the two suspects had a very high will to live and fight the fight. Whether the bullet penetrated 13.2 inches or 14.1 it makes no difference these two guys took multiple hits and fought through the pain and continued to fight just as the agents did. I am not praising the bad guys in the least just saying that is the kind of opponent you do not want to face in a dark alley.

    You can have the latest 30 shot super magnum master blaster or a SA .45 Colt if you dont hit him in the right place to make him quit he won't plain and simple.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  13. #43
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Read the autopsy reports. Many of the hits were fatal, but there is one that would have been immediatly fatal if it would have only penetrated another inch or so. One round, early in the fight, would have saved at least 2 agents and ended all hostilities.

    This is not my opinion, just the facts that anyone who can read and understand with a 5 th grade comprehension level will understand if they read it.

    This statement I made is not to be misconstrued as to think that I am saying anyone who doesn't agree with me is stupid. But, this single shot is the reason the FBI started looking into a better caliber choice, and lead to the development of the 10mm.
    In this light, a lot of weight was placed on the importance of this one shot over the many that were fired.

    Lesson here for me is that even though you may carry several reloads of your light weight +p ammo, sometimes it comes down to that one shot that could have made the difference, if it penetrated properly.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  14. #44
    Senior Member Array BRTCP88's Avatar
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    Unlike some others, since I have almost no knowledge of this subject I'm keeping out of it, but I had to say...

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Actually I could tell you about autopsy I have observed, quite a few court cases I have testified in,and am currently involved with, and at least 5 LE agencies I have helped with training, not to mention my tenure at Quantico VA.

    But since I have been have obtained the honor of being on your ignore list, ( and I do consider it as such), I will not have to go through the effort of wasting my time.
    Check and mate, LOL.
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  15. #45
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Read the autopsy reports. Many of the hits were fatal, but there is one that would have been immediatly fatal if it would have only penetrated another inch or so. One round, early in the fight, would have saved at least 2 agents and ended all hostilities.
    Indeed. Maybe the military has it right. Just use FMJ.

    As a bonus - virtually no feed issues.

    Since reliability, shot placement, and penetration matter far more than a bit of difference in diameter, might be a good option. It certainly has been proven to work. Biggest concern would be over-penetration, especially in an urban environment, though I sometimes wonder if that is overblown.

    Anyway - interesting thread.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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