Facts, Fantasy, and Bullet Weight - Page 4

Facts, Fantasy, and Bullet Weight

This is a discussion on Facts, Fantasy, and Bullet Weight within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I think over penetration is a concern with NATO spec 9mm. But I'm not sure if it would be with standard 115 fmj. But even ...

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Thread: Facts, Fantasy, and Bullet Weight

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I think over penetration is a concern with NATO spec 9mm. But I'm not sure if it would be with standard 115 fmj. But even the HP could go thru.
    But I think I'll error on the side of too much rather than not enough.
    bmcgilvray likes this.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.


  2. #47
    Senior Member Array BRTCP88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Indeed. Maybe the military has it right. Just use FMJ.

    As a bonus - virtually no feed issues.

    Since reliability, shot placement, and penetration matter far more than a bit of difference in diameter, might be a good option. It certainly has been proven to work. Biggest concern would be over-penetration, especially in an urban environment, though I sometimes wonder if that is overblown.

    Anyway - interesting thread.
    I'd have to disagree with that. The military is operating in a whole different scenario than citizens. I don't know any cops that carry FMJs and that is much closer to civilian self-defense than a warzone.
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  3. #48
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRTCP88 View Post
    I'd have to disagree with that. The military is operating in a whole different scenario than citizens. I don't know any cops that carry FMJs and that is much closer to civilian self-defense than a warzone.
    Well now you can't say that, because I'm LE, and when off duty use hard ball in my 1911, and lswc in my revolvers.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  4. #49
    Member Array snakyjake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Indeed. Maybe the military has it right. Just use FMJ.
    It is illegal for a military to use expanding bullets, hence FMJ, especially in larger calibers.

    Just because something is good/bad for military or LE doesn't mean it is optimal for civilian. I strongly urge people to consider their personal defensive scenarios and tactics, which may be different than military or LE. Considering your scenarios and restrictions is exactly what these other agencies do to optimize their success.

    Jake

  5. #50
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRTCP88 View Post
    I'd have to disagree with that. The military is operating in a whole different scenario than citizens. I don't know any cops that carry FMJs and that is much closer to civilian self-defense than a warzone.
    Actually, the current war is not all that different from self defense on the street. You have BGs, and you have innocent bystanders. Often, encounters are in an urban environment.

    Would actually love to hear from those who've used pistols in the sandbox, if there is really an issue with over-penetration...and remember, the military is using full-house NATO-spec FMJ.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  6. #51
    Member Array snakyjake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Actually, the current war is not all that different from self defense on the street. You have BGs, and you have innocent bystanders. Often, encounters are in an urban environment.
    But the government can kill innocent people without punishment (collateral damage). The ideologies are also different too. When you are a civilian, society doesn't give you the same leniency as military and LE.

  7. #52
    Member Array snakyjake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Often, encounters are in an urban environment.
    My suggestion to everyone is to keep reading the news and police reports to find out what is going on in their neighborhoods. These are the scenarios you should train and gear for.

  8. #53
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Actually, the current war is not all that different from self defense on the street. You have BGs, and you have innocent bystanders. Often, encounters are in an urban environment.

    Would actually love to hear from those who've used pistols in the sandbox, if there is really an issue with over-penetration...and remember, the military is using full-house NATO-spec FMJ.
    I wasn't aware we were currently having issues in this country with IEDs, and random jihadis spraying AK-47s and RPGs.

    Plus, I don't really think the military cares much about overpenetration. I mean we drop 500 to 2000 pound JDAMs on these urban environments, and we have .50 cal HMGs on HMMWVs that could probably penetrate through 4 or 5 people back to back to back.

    Just sayin.'
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  9. #54
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    But the government can kill innocent people without punishment (collateral damage).

    Wow really. I did not know that. If that is the case let me go load up and go target some bad guys since I dont have to worry about any civilians getting in the way.

    You are really talking out of you butt with this statement. There are more guidlines and restrictions on the Rules of Engagement and Rules on the use of force for military and civilians operating in a war zone than you can imagine. If what you say is true why go out and hunt down the guys who bombard us daily with rockets let the Apaches or the drones kill them? Who cares if they are in a school we can kill them and get away with it.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  10. #55
    Member Array snakyjake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    You are really talking out of you butt with this statement.
    It's naive to think there has been zero innocent civilians killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    There are more guidlines and restrictions on the Rules of Engagement and Rules on the use of force for military and civilians operating in a war zone than you can imagine.
    And still the rules cannot eliminate innocent deaths caused by their own doings.

  11. #56
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    SPAM= Stuff Posing As Meat
    and I look at this argument like this. would you rather be hit by a pinto doing 60 mph or a Peterbuilt going 45mph. Personally, I will keep my .45 and would not own a 9mm
    MIA/POW , Bring em home or Send us back

  12. #57
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by papahawk View Post
    SPAM= Stuff Posing As Meat
    and I look at this argument like this. would you rather be hit by a pinto doing 60 mph or a Peterbuilt going 45mph. Personally, I will keep my .45 and would not own a 9mm
    Except that is a terrible comparison...

    Ford Pinto

    Mass - 914 kg
    Velocity - 27 mps
    Kinetic Energy - 333,153 joules

    Peterbuilt

    Mass - 7,414 kg
    Velocity - 20 mps
    Kinetic Energy - 1,482,800 joules

    And 9x19 vs. .45 ACP...

    9x19 Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. +P

    Mass - 124 gr.
    Velocity (4.5" Barrel) - 1237 fps
    Kinetic Energy - 420 ft-lbs

    .45 ACP Speer Gold Dot 230 gr.

    Mass - 230 gr.
    Velocity (5" Barrel) - 895 fps
    Kinetic Energy - 410 ft-lbs
    snakyjake likes this.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

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  13. #58
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    AZ only you would have the formula's.

    snakyjake. In no way shape or form am I naive about the facts of war and life in the Middle Eastern warzones as I have lived and worked in them for 5 years now. Yes there have been civilian casualties there always is in war, but your comment implies that civilians are kill with random gunfire with no afterthought or punishment for the offender which is absolutely not true.

    Secondly you obviously watch take a lot of what the media says as gospel in regards to what goes on here. Over the years it has been found that they are insurgents while they are shooting at you fighting their Jihad until they are killed then all of a sudden they are an innocent goat farmer who was doing nothing but living the simple life and raising his family.

    Lastly as you stated no rules can end civilian deaths when the insurgents bury themselves in the population and engage US and coalition forces from a school, mosque or house without regards to the civilians that are there. So until you have been here, done that, got the t shirt lost friends, or picked up pieces of the men you have served with it may be best to do a little more research before you make such comments.

    Mods sorry if this is considered a thread hijack did not mean to.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  14. #59
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    AZ only you would have the formula's.
    Yeah, I just can't allow someone to make a claim that outrageous and get away with it...
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  15. #60
    Distinguished Member Array onacoma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Read the autopsy reports. Many of the hits were fatal, but there is one that would have been immediatly fatal if it would have only penetrated another inch or so. One round, early in the fight, would have saved at least 2 agents and ended all hostilities.

    This is not my opinion, just the facts that anyone who can read and understand with a 5 th grade comprehension level will understand if they read it.

    This statement I made is not to be misconstrued as to think that I am saying anyone who doesn't agree with me is stupid. But, this single shot is the reason the FBI started looking into a better caliber choice, and lead to the development of the 10mm.
    In this light, a lot of weight was placed on the importance of this one shot over the many that were fired.

    Lesson here for me is that even though you may carry several reloads of your light weight +p ammo, sometimes it comes down to that one shot that could have made the difference, if it penetrated properly.
    I started this thread to supplement the diatribe on heavy bullets vs light bullets.

    While you’re correct on the 10mm performance, the FBI adopted the 10mm light aka 40 S & W because of the recoil and being able to put follow up rounds on target. If all of us could handle the full 10mm then we would all buy a 10mm. Trust me when I say the MP-5 in 10mm was a dream! But they were difficult to control vs the 9mm!

    The only point I was trying to make is that not everyone is capable of carrying a 10mm and not everyone is able to conceal a 45 ACP. So we must use the best possible SD rounds and to some that may be a 380 ACP or 22LR and to the likes of you and I we’ll carry pocket cannons.

    An example, I have a woman I’m teaching to shoot. She had never shot a weapon before, so her daughter takes her out the first time and hands her a Glock 19. She developed a flinch and limp wristed the weapon, can we say stovepipes? So I take her out on her second time to the range I downsized her to a P22 - 22LR to learn. She has lost the finch and she is shooting straight, two handed, strong handed, and weak handed. After every session, she has to shoot whichever weapon I’m carrying, either my 357 sig P2000 SK or my 9 mm P2000 SK. Now she doesn’t flinch on either weapon and she can put rounds on target with a two handed, weak handed, or strong handed grip! She'll never conceal a double stack 45 ACP, 40 SW, or 9 mm. Again use the tool that works for you.

    Some of the people on this forum aren’t as crusty as you and I! They take everything to heart. However I don’t know of any agency still shooting wad-cutters and I (IMHO) think most of today SD rounds (Gold Dot, Ranger, DT) can handle most problems. However like some of the past events, not every round will perform as advertised so we need to be capable of managing the event and putting rounds on target.

    Now I have one personal question; “Did your pet attack elephant give you a wedgie right after that picture was taken?” He got an evil look in his eyes!


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